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Jono
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Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 459

    11/11/06 at 09:06 PMReply with quote#1

I have been working on player rotation when we lose the ball in our attacking 1/3rd.
 
Example: When my wing mid is attacking, our system goes from a 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3. When the wing mid looses possession and we transition to defense, my mids rotate over to defensively cover for the high placement of the wing mid. The week side wing mid tucks in also.
 
I'm looking for variations on teaching this. I've been teaching it in a 5v5+GK's SSG. Players are in a diamond shape with a center target mid. Works well, just looking for new ideas.
Allez_Arsenal
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    11/11/06 at 09:45 PMReply with quote#2

If it were me I wouldn't tuck in my weak side outside mid....instead....teach your right back (if the ball is on the right mids foot) to push up in a supporting position as your back line shifts over. It would look like this:

 

 

   

 

                                                    RM (w/ball)

 

           LM                                      RB

                   

                      LB      CB       CB

 

  That is pretty rough....but you can see that the RB can step in and apply pressure while the back line shifts to cover...at the same time you delay the ball the LM can get back in the play and join your defensive line.

 

 

AA


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JimN
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    11/12/06 at 08:23 AMReply with quote#3

A_A - why would you leave your LM completely out of the play when the ball is on the opposite side of the field?

Jono - how does your midfield defend?  Flat, diamond, DM behind three?




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Jono
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    11/12/06 at 09:21 AMReply with quote#4

We defend with DM behind 3. The weak side CM is the DM. When attacking the strong side CM supports the wing mid behind and at a 45. When possession is lost the strong side CM is the 1st defender and the weak side CM is the DM negative and at a 45 with the strong side outside back taking up a zone 15 yds to the touch line.
 
                                                               Lost possession here>WM
 
                                                                                   CM
                   Weak side Mid                                   
                                                             DM
                   
                      OB                                                              OB
                                                                  CB
                                           CB
                                                                                                
Allez_Arsenal
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    11/12/06 at 10:06 AMReply with quote#5

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimN
A_A - why would you leave your LM completely out of the play when the ball is on the opposite side of the field?

Jono - how does your midfield defend?  Flat, diamond, DM behind three?



    I would not leave the LM out of the play at all....there are two center mids as well. It would look like this:

 

 

                                          RM

 

             LM        CM      CM

 

   The Left mid would pinch in and would provide some depth as well as being able to fall back and cover the back line as well.

 

 

AA

 

      


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JimN
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    11/12/06 at 10:23 AMReply with quote#6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jono
We defend with DM behind 3. The weak side CM is the DM. When attacking the strong side CM supports the wing mid behind and at a 45. When possession is lost the strong side CM is the 1st defender and the weak side CM is the DM negative and at a 45 with the strong side outside back taking up a zone 15 yds to the touch line.
                                                               Lost possession here>WM
 
                                                                                   CM
                   Weak side Mid                                   
                                                             DM
                   
                      OB                                                              OB
                                                                  CB
                                           CB


I would suggest the following as a guide:
                                                               Lost possession here>WM
 
                                                                                   CM
                                              WM                                   
                                                                DM                             OB
                   
                              OB                                           CB          
                                                          CB      
                             

Of course, this is a guide, and as soon as you add opponents and movement, your players will have to make adjustments.  You could flatten the back line a little more if you are comfortable with it.

By pulling the opposite WM into the field, you are taking space away from the opponents in a dangerous area, something that is paramount.  You could make the decision, at times, that the weak WM is not necessary there, adn have him float higher and wider as the outlet for your team when they win the ball - it would be a little more attack minded posture.

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JimN
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    11/12/06 at 10:31 AMReply with quote#7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez_Arsenal

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimN
A_A - why would you leave your LM completely out of the play when the ball is on the opposite side of the field?

Jono - how does your midfield defend? Flat, diamond, DM behind three?



I would not leave the LM out of the play at all....there are two center mids as well. It would look like this:

 

                                          RM

 

             LM        CM      CM

 

The Left mid would pinch in and would provide some depth as well as being able to fall back and cover the back line as well.

AA

gotcha - your post above gave me the impression that you would have your LM well wide of the LD, rather than pinching in.  Just seen that too many times, and it biases what I read.

I do believe that you could do better by either releasing a CM a little forward, or having the LM play ahead of the CMs a bit, not sure I like the flatness in the midfield, too easy to play around.

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Allez_Arsenal
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    11/12/06 at 11:07 AMReply with quote#8

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimN

gotcha - your post above gave me the impression that you would have your LM well wide of the LD, rather than pinching in.  Just seen that too many times, and it biases what I read.

I do believe that you could do better by either releasing a CM a little forward, or having the LM play ahead of the CMs a bit, not sure I like the flatness in the midfield, too easy to play around.

 

    Yah...I was too lazy in putting the positions in....but normall with my mids I would want the them to make a nike swoosh almost, then I instruct the left mid to look to get his heels on the line as soon as the ball begins to come near him

 

AA

   


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KeiththeKoach
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Posts: 2,097

    11/12/06 at 06:24 PMReply with quote#9

This is all very academic and bears little comparison to reality.  What are the front men doing while these diagrams are being composed?  Trying to educate coaches or players that there are specific POSITIONS that players should adopt depending on the positon of the ball is impractical.  Surely, everything stems from where each player is when the team loses possession.

 

The players' primary role is unimportant when the need for transition occurs.  At this point basic principles are the important factor. 

 

Out of time, got a golf date. More later.

MrSoccer
Registered: 01/25/04
Posts: 5,147

    11/12/06 at 07:02 PMReply with quote#10

We did this at the end of every single practice on a full field.

 

We break up the team and play a game on a full field. Very important to push the players to retreat to the defending half of the field if we lose the ball.

 

Except the upper most 3 players. Player closest to ball and dribbler pressure that player. Farthest up field player takes away the

 dribblers closest back pass option, and the other supports the first defender. If ther ball get's by the first defender the second defender takes the player closest to the ball and the first defender becomes the second defender behind him.

 

When the rest get behind into our defensive half of the field they also retreat into that part of the field.

 

If by chance the upper most three get the ball back. Then we have a three man counter attack.


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Bob_Christensen
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Posts: 1,094

    11/13/06 at 03:04 PMReply with quote#11

Tactics vs Strategy.

These situations are extremely fluid, and that is how the game is to be played (IMHO).  Describing a change from a 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3 as a wing mid moves aggressively up to take advantage of space is really counter-productive.  You want stability AND flexibility in a system of play.

That is why I like to approach fluid positioning through the concept of "vulnerable space".  On the attack, your wing mid moved up to take advantage of some vulnerable space offered by the opponents (also fluid) movements.  The remaining backs and probably some other mids need to quickly assess the situation and see if that winger's movements have opened up any vulnerable space in your own backfield, and then adjust accordingly to minimize the danger, move the vulnerable space someplace a bit less vulnerable, or at least be aware of the situation so they can track the movements of opponents who may be able to attack this vulnerable space on a counter.

Leave the decision-making in real time up to the players.  Try to avoid rote movements, they are far too predictable. Help the players understand the parameters that will allow them to make informed, wise decisions as they play.  Then let them play, monitor the results, look at the decision-making in match situations, and then in training try to prepare tehm to make better decisions.

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Jono
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    11/13/06 at 05:15 PMReply with quote#12

Thanks Bob, I agree. Hopefully what I am doing is showing the players how to "see" open space to exploit in the attack and how to "see" the open space we need to cover when transition takes place.
 
Example: When you teach a team how to do overlapping runs your not telling them that this is what I want you to do all the time. You're showing them how to exploit the space and letting them decide during the flow of the game when and where it's appropriate to overlap.
Bob_Christensen
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    11/13/06 at 05:37 PMReply with quote#13

Bingo! But you would be floored by the number of coaches who just show them the mechanics of the various combination plays, and never address when it might be a wise option, and why.

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KeiththeKoach
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    11/13/06 at 05:48 PMReply with quote#14

Totally agree Bob. The idea that FORMATIONS change as suggested in the question and that a player in a particular position should always 'tuck in' is trying to play by rote.  There are far too many variables for that kind of approach. In general, a defensive mid is often required to plug holes at the back to maintain balance but is just as likely to be a first or second defender.

 

My main concern with the diagrams is they give no clue as to which part of the field is being defended.  Is this the alignment on the edge of the 18, the half way or what?  What is the overall team tactic? Is this the alignment when we are asked to defend high pressure or low pressure? 

 

Over time I continue to be disappointed by the continual references to formations rather than to shape.  Watching Arsenal (since I got Fox this year) I have marvelled at their so called 4-5-1 formation.  Just this week, Kolo Taure ( a centre back) ran through the centre of Liverpool's defence to latch onto a through ball to score an excellent goal.  Flamini, nominally a defensive mid in their 5 man midfield also scored from close range. 

 

For each player, transition duties depend on where you are when the ball is lost. Where would these two players have gone on transition if their goal attempts had been saved?

 

 

 

 

JimN
Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 2,935

    11/13/06 at 07:59 PMReply with quote#15

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeiththeKoach

This is all very academic and bears little comparison to reality. What are the front men doing while these diagrams are being composed? Trying to educate coaches or players that there are specific POSITIONS that players should adopt depending on the positon of the ball is impractical. Surely, everything stems from where each player is when the team loses possession.

The players' primary role is unimportant when the need for transition occurs. At this point basic principles are the important factor.

Out of time, got a golf date. More later.



I disagree, Keith.

In my buildup to our system of defending, the obvious cornerstones are individual defending techniques and principles of defending as an individual and in small groups.  However, that is clearly not enough.

When we begin our full field defending, we start with the backs and a keeper, then add midfielders, then add forwards.  We work through various parts of the field.  We train how we want to defend, in what numbers, and in what shape.  We go through the basic shapes invovled, such as those above, and we do the same with variations that they are likely to see in matches.

We train this first in relation to the ball, then we gradually add opponents until we are dealing with a full field situation.

The fact is, we quite often see our shape in a 4-4-2 look almost identical to what I have described above, because it will nicely deal with opposing formations that we will often see.  Sure, when opponents run, things are modified, but there is a resemblance to our basic shape when we get numbers behind the ball.

Our preference is that we ably deal with opponents so that we always get our preferred number of players behind the ball when they attack.  Obviously, this is not always the case, but surely in the circumstance asked about, we can easily have all but one of the 8 that we would like to see behind the ball involved in our basic defending shape, right?  With good numbers like that, it only makes sense to train the basic shapes, then the slight variations that occur when opponents are added to the mix, and build it into a game.  Yes, the basic shape reacts to the ball and opponents, but it is a little overboard to say that the shapes are "all very academic and bears little comparison to reality".  Often, given the exact instance that we are asked about, we will see almost exactly the shapes shown above - in a frozen moment.

Maybe that is your point, that the moments so often change that we will not see this shape for long.  That is a good point, but remember, if we take the different basic moments that we expect to see, then train the movement we expect our shape to have in transition between said moments, we will have a sound system of defending that, coupled with good training in techniques and principles of defending, will serve our team quite nicely.

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JimN
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    11/13/06 at 08:05 PMReply with quote#16

Keith, we are talking two completely different animals when we are talking about structure in defending and attacking play - not even a close comparison on how it should be dealt with.

In your examples, while those players came forward to get their goals, do you not believe that there was a definitive structure behind them, regardless of the players who performed in given roles in the moment?

Good points from you and Bob on attacking play, but it muddies the waters in a thread that asks about defensive structure and how to organize for an OM who gets caught ahead of the ball in the attack.  I would be shocked if you did not give your teams their basic shape to cover the exact instance that Jono described, it happens so often.  The melding of the principles behind the system, and the structure of the system itself is what will guide the players decision making when defending.


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Bob_Christensen
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    11/13/06 at 09:09 PMReply with quote#17

JimN:  My point was (or was meant to be) that space and movement are the keys to good team posture, on both attack and defense.  Part of the problem is when you divorce defense from attack.  That is easy to do on paper, but practically, it is impossible to do on the field.  The point that I was trying to make was that vulnerable space is vulnerable space, and by teaching players to recognize and identify it is a useful concept for both attack and defense.  Then it just requires the coach to fine tune the group to look for, identify, and adjust accordingly.  That is equally true on attack and defense.

When you isolate a moment in a match, it is relatively easy to dissect in the comfort of our desk at a PC, with minutes to think and pick apart everything.  In the real world of the match, decisions must be made instantly, or even sooner (anticipation).  By keeping things relatively simple, it helps the players make sound decisions quickly, and just as importantly, getting them to anticipate both their teammates and opponents decisions so that they can prepare and adjust their position accordingly.

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    11/13/06 at 09:22 PMReply with quote#18

Let me suggest one other way to look at this.

 

Ogranization is important and principles of play will guide players' actions, but another way to look at how your players align themselves is to use a few other quick aids to thought.

 

First, players within roughly 20 yards (adults, adjust down for younger ages and for adults with less skill) of the ball will position themselves in relation to the ball.

 

Second, players further away will position themselves in relation to the position being taken by their opponents.  The defense balancing and filing passing lanes and the offense seeking support positions and width to create passing options.

 

These are not absolutes by any means, but they are a short hand way to look at your alignment and see quickly who is not in a proper position for the given moment of play. 

 

Thought of this way the position of the defensive mids is dictated by a factor not show on any diagram - the position of the attacking team's players at the moment of transition and immediately thereafter.

JimN
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    11/14/06 at 01:07 AMReply with quote#19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_Christensen
JimN: My point was (or was meant to be) that space and movement are the keys to good team posture, on both attack and defense.


agreed

Quote:
Part of the problem is when you divorce defense from attack. That is easy to do on paper, but practically, it is impossible to do on the field.


disagree.  When we are attacking, we want to stretch our shape; when we defend we want to make it more compact.  No doubt we want to transition smoothly between the two, but we must teach our players where we are trying to arrive defensively to have even half a chance to do so - these are the shapes we see in books all the time.

Of course, if we stop at teaching the shapes, and not the movements to help arrive at the shapes and the cues that start those movements, we have left an incomplete picture.  This does not render the basic structure incomplete or ineffective, though.  The guideline of a tighter structure defensively and looser structure in the attack I have found useful, too.

Quote:
The point that I was trying to make was that vulnerable space is vulnerable space, and by teaching players to recognize and identify it is a useful concept for both attack and defense. Then it just requires the coach to fine tune the group to look for, identify, and adjust accordingly. That is equally true on attack and defense.


agreed, the idea of knowing how to identify and exploit this space in the attack, or identify and protect this space in our defending scheme is a cornerstone of our scheme.

Quote:


When you isolate a moment in a match, it is relatively easy to dissect in the comfort of our desk at a PC, with minutes to think and pick apart everything. In the real world of the match, decisions must be made instantly, or even sooner (anticipation). By keeping things relatively simple, it helps the players make sound decisions quickly, and just as importantly, getting them to anticipate both their teammates and opponents decisions so that they can prepare and adjust their position accordingly.


No doubt, just as it is easier from the touchline than it is from inside the lines.  However, that is why we are there, to identify and train what the players may not be able to.  Everyone has their method, but I am just surprised that basic shapes for the team as ideals we are striving for is not part of that - for me, this does seem to simplify my message to my players. 

I want them to know what the basic plan is, then how we move to adapt, then how we adapt to holes in our basic plan.  I can appreciate that others may not use these frozen moments and shapes for teaching their defending system, but I believe in them enough to defend them from the idea that they are not useful or attainable.  I definitely agree that the movement from shape to shape is often not trained as well as it could be.

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JimN
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    11/14/06 at 01:17 AMReply with quote#20

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFB

Let me suggest one other way to look at this.

Ogranization is important and principles of play will guide players' actions, but another way to look at how your players align themselves is to use a few other quick aids to thought.

First, players within roughly 20 yards (adults, adjust down for younger ages and for adults with less skill) of the ball will position themselves in relation to the ball.

Second, players further away will position themselves in relation to the position being taken by their opponents. The defense balancing and filing passing lanes and the offense seeking support positions and width to create passing options.

These are not absolutes by any means, but they are a short hand way to look at your alignment and see quickly who is not in a proper position for the given moment of play.

Thought of this way the position of the defensive mids is dictated by a factor not show on any diagram - the position of the attacking team's players at the moment of transition and immediately thereafter.



I think I like the basic guideline, but not completely.  We still make adjustments to our shape near the ball regarding not only the ball position, but also wrt the opponents, the pressure on the ball, if the ball is prepared to play, etc...  Away from the ball, I teach a little more that we have a basic shape to, as you say, balance the field and take away places that the opponents can play the ball, but it is also relative to the ball as well as where the opposition is or is moving to.

Any shape that we are looking to arrive at changes based upon these variables, too.  Don't diagrams serve as a useful tool as a starting point?  I can't imagine teaching the scheme without having our basic shapes sorted out, but leave room for the idea that others can and do teach without them.

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