Soccer coaching forum
and-again soccer forum
Register  |   |   |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 2      1   2   Next
BillyGates

Registered:
Posts: 186
Reply with quote  #1 
So I was watching C. Ronaldo making runs all over the place against the Netherlands today (even before he scored) and was wondering why they give him so much space and don't dedicate someone to mark him all around the pitch?

Seems to work well against top players in non-Pro levels...   Any thoughts?
irnmadn88

Registered:
Posts: 3,501
Reply with quote  #2 
Well...

Portugal is not just Cristiano Ronaldo.


I forget, but I think Holland had to win. Conceding an attacker to defend Ronaldo would have effectively scuttled the ship. 

(Never mind, the Dutch coach effectively sunk the ship by playing De Jong and Van Bommel together for as long as he did.)

__________________
The difference between L and W is 11...
edfordham

Registered:
Posts: 5,401
Reply with quote  #3 

They had to win by two actually but Billy is right, in this instance, against Ronaldo you must man to man him or at the minimum have one eye on the defensive side of your game with C Ronaldo playing.

 

Van Marwing got all three games wrong for the Dutch and they paid for it.

MrSoccer

Registered:
Posts: 9,198
Reply with quote  #4 
You have to have a good matchup to even come close to covering him one on one. It has to be a back or a defensive mid who is as quick as he is. Plus on attack that man is out of the game. You said he was making runs all over the field that's why.

Maybe no one man can cover him all over the field.

One man can cover a Landon Donovan but not this guy. Maybe if Landon made runs all over the field he could not be covered either. But that is not the way jurgen plays him now.

__________________
Only the unloved hate
mobix

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 26
Reply with quote  #5 
Will see guys what Bilek (czech coach) will use to cover Ronaldo. There is Gebre Selassie fast and smart guy who can run all game on him....
 In 1996 Czech team won 1:0 and went Final game....... nobody was expecting something like that. So everything is possible....
BillyGates

Registered:
Posts: 186
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSoccer

Maybe no one man can cover him all over the field.


I don't see C. Ronaldo having unusual fitness levels as he tends to do a lot of walking when they don't have the ball (I'm not a fan of his lack of defensive mindset )... so I really don't think it would be a huge issue covering him.

I guess I'd like to clarify how should you mark him man-to-man?

I'd think if a defensive-midfielder marked him about 5-10 feet goal-side everywhere he went, and if you're the last man back think about pinching up to put him off-side...

Any better ways to mark someone around the pitch?

messifan10

Registered:
Posts: 1,997
Reply with quote  #7 
The problem for the Dutch was the fact that they do not have a defensive player as fast as Ronaldo to man-mark him. Sure, someone may manage to stay close to him when he is walking or jogging, but as soon as he starts to sprint into space that man-marker will be nowhere near Ronaldo. And all a player like Ronaldo needs is a few yards of distance for a few split seconds.

On both occasions Ronaldo scored, there was a defender near him. What happened to that defender on each goal?
EoinOC

Registered:
Posts: 486
Reply with quote  #8 
Also Holland kept a midfield 2 in some ways and De Jong was in a left centre position and Van Der Vaart was left central but obviously Van Der Vaart was playing higher up the pitch so basically in the defensive area Ronaldo only had to worry about Van Der Wiel as the wingers were pushed up and there was no left central midfield player for him to worry about.

A reason for this was Holland had to win by 2 goals so they had to risk it. But as Messifan said once Ronaldo hits that top speed very few would have been able to keep up with him anyway.
Goal150

Registered:
Posts: 3,098
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edfordham

Van Marwing got all three games wrong for the Dutch and they paid for it.



I'm nitpicking, but in the first game the Dutch created a ton of chances just missed the target. Not sure how much of that can be placed on the manager. But in the subsequent matches.

People complain about the Van Bommel and De Jong pairing but I think the biggest problem was Robben. That guy, I don't know what people see in him. He effectively takes everyone else out of the attack. No one moves for him. Of course he makes me eat my words with his assist to Van Der Vaart yesterday but he needs to do more of that and not his usual, pointless, schtick.

Van Marwijk's mistake was letting Robben have the run of the place. In my head, Van Der Vaart and Sneijder would've made a much better counter point to Van Bommel and De Jong. VDV and S would've been having a field day playing to Van Persie and Huntelaar up top.

Van Persie didn't help things either. His footing was just off on a couple of chances that I was sure he would finish.
irnmadn88

Registered:
Posts: 3,501
Reply with quote  #10 
Again, I like this guy's analysis:


__________________
The difference between L and W is 11...
pitadad

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,217
Reply with quote  #11 
going back to the WC, the Dutch never dominated games; they sat back with 2 hackers in front of 4 man defense and countered. They kept it compact in the back as they knew defense was no good. Robben and other forwards had plenty of space.

Why not the same tactics? I can only guess that the Dutch as a nation were not too pleased with that style of play. Euro's 2012; defense even worse, Van Bommel older, De Jong a benchwarmer, goal keeper just back from injury, one of the defenders just back from injury, Affelay injured all season, the 18 year old left back was playing 2nd division 8 months ago (coach had 2 years to come up with a left back), Robben not over Champions league final and other misses, Van Persie never perfroms for Dutch etc.etc.etc.

And which coach in his right mind would put Schneider left wing? And did not change this until 2nd half?

All these experts that picked Dutch to make it far should look for a different job.

__________________
Said Van Gaal, "So this trainer wants to win. So he makes substitutions. It's simple."
EricMcGrath

Registered:
Posts: 7,792
Reply with quote  #12 
Mourinho played Sneijder on the left regularly.
pitadad

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,217
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricMcGrath
Mourinho played Sneijder on the left regularly.


Ok, but Mourinho had plenty of options and many world class players at his disposal. Van Marwijk does not have that luxury.Sneijder set the record vs the Danes for # of chances created..You really want to take that person out of the middle of the field?   You need to find a way to involve your best players, Sneijder 1st half was not productive/used enough for a player of his caliber.  I also think that a work horse such a Kuyt should have been used vs Portugal.


__________________
Said Van Gaal, "So this trainer wants to win. So he makes substitutions. It's simple."
Goal150

Registered:
Posts: 3,098
Reply with quote  #14 
I'd check if Mourinho had more world class players at Inter than Holland does. Even if it is correct, which I doubt, it's a negligible difference.
seansteele

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 10
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyGates

Seems to work well against top players in non-Pro levels...   Any thoughts?

Your drop in quality - in terms of technique and tactical know-how - is more significant in the non-pro levels. Having a player mark CR9 will result in him pulling the defender out of position and allow another talented player to occupy and exploit that space. 

Even though they weren't man marking, the Dutch where exposed when pulled out of position. From zonalmarking.net

Central midfield

Holland’s trouble inevitably started from the movement of the fabulous Mesut Ozil, who drifted towards the right of the pitch in the first half, combining with Muller. As the deepest-lying Dutch midfielder, de Jong generally followed him – which left Mark van Bommel covering a large space of the pitch in front of the Dutch defence.

Third runner

Van Bommel then had to pick up the second runner – either Sami Khedira or Bastian Schweinsteiger. But the great value of Germany’s fluidity and bravery in midfield was demonstrated by the fact that the other player didn’t merely stay deep and pick up Sneijder. Germany left him to the centre-backs, generally keeping one full-back in a defensive position to maintain three defenders at the back if the ball was lost. That meant they had a third midfield runner.

The first goal highlighted this brilliantly. De Jong started off marking Ozil in a central zone, but ends up being dragged to a left-back position. Van Bommel tracks Khedira, who also moves towards that side of the pitch. Therefore, the entire central midfield zone has been opened up for Schweinsteiger – with Sneijder miles away. Schweinsteiger  gets the ball, and slipsin Gomez, who spun and finished excellently. This was an isolated incident, but it had been coming.

For the second goal, something similar happened. De Jong moved with Ozil towards the left-back position and van Bommel had erroneously been tracking Khedira when Schweinsteiger was higher up the pitch. Schweinsteiger was then free to receive Ozil’s pass, and played in Gomez again. In fact, Schweinsteiger only passed to Gomez twice in the first half, and both were assists.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyGates
I'd think if a defensive-midfielder marked him about 5-10 feet goal-side everywhere he went, and if you're the last man back think about pinching up to put him off-side...

Whether man-to-man or zonal your going to run into problems with CR9's speed and timing. Look at his first goal. He had a man doing just what you said and he still got beat.


__________________
http://www.steelesoccer.com
BillyGates

Registered:
Posts: 186
Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Whether man-to-man or zonal your going to run into problems with CR9's speed and timing. Look at his first goal. He had a man doing just what you said and he still got beat.



Thanks for the video!    Looking at 25s in the video, it looks to be an issue with the defender letting CR9 get behind him, and not watching both the ball and CR9.   So I bet it just happened CR9 was in the same 'zone' as the defender as he wasn't particularly marking him... as he gets drawn toward the ball thinking he may have to challenge that instead of covering CR9... oh well live and learn I guess... LOL




irnmadn88

Registered:
Posts: 3,501
Reply with quote  #17 
Watch carefully.

Watch the forward closer to the ball. He checks toward the ball drawing his defender with him clearing the space for the ball to be played through. 

Ronaldo reads the other forward's checking run and times his run to the ball perfectly. 

Not only that, the far side outside back took a step back towards his own goal thus giving more room for Ronaldo to be onside.

Also look at De Jong #8 raising his hand for offside when his poor effort did not close the passing lane and besides, the defending line was line 4-5 yards behind him. Pathetic really.

So not just the ability of Ronaldo, but the failure of several Dutch players to perform all at once.

__________________
The difference between L and W is 11...
PNG123

Registered:
Posts: 10
Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricMcGrath
Mourinho played Sneijder on the left regularly.

Eric, with Inter Sneijder rarely played on the left. He always played centrally in a 4-2-3-1 (as the trequartista in the attacking 3), or as the playmaker in a 4-3-1-2. Mou used the former formation in bigger games with Eto'o and Pandev as wide forwards which used to back track to help out nearly as wing backs. The few games Sneijder played wide were due to injuries of one of the strikers- or else to find space when the centre was congested. 

In fact in Mou's 4-2-3-1 Sneijder was the only player not to have marking/defensive tasks. He always hovered around the midfield whilst the rest of the team played a catenaccio. As soon as Inter regained the ball they always used the same play: ball to Milito - drop to Sneijder who would complete the transition with a pass back to Milito or Eto'o, completing a counter attack from one side to another with 3 passes. Just look at the goal of Eto'o at the Bridge, or the first goal of Milito against bayern. I think Mou's Inter of 2010 were the perfect example of his belief in quick-effective transitioning.

With regards to the Dutch, I think leaving out Strootman was a horrible mistake in the first two matches (especially against Denmark), he's been brilliant this season at club level! In reality Marwijk couldn't have done much in the last match. He couldn't afford to play a deeper line to limit Ronaldo because they needed 2 goals, and he didn't have good enough defenders at his disposal to cover Ronaldo effectively in such open spaces (though as you all said, when given those spaces few defenders can keep up)

Bionicgal

Registered:
Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #19 
Hype aside, Ronaldo is a pretty extraordinary athlete. I was glad to see him finally produce a little in an international match. If you need evidence of his giftedness, there is a video out that looks at him on a number of levels (speed, agility, atc.) and it is pretty clear how out of the ordinary he is. I love the comment that he "walks around a lot." It is a 90 minute match, mate!
keithscarlett

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 540
Reply with quote  #20 
seansteele said "Your drop in quality - in terms of technique and tactical know-how - is more significant in the non-pro levels. Having a player mark CR9 will result in him pulling the defender out of position and allow another talented player to occupy and exploit that space."

This is almost spot on.

Whenever you "man-mark" a player,you essentially take the player you're marking out of the game and end-up playing 10 v 11...at the minimum when attacking...

If a player is that good that they 'need' to be marked-up, then they're more-than-likely too good to be marked and as has been explained above, will get free from the mark anyways.  thus, you are wasting a player in doing so...

Tactical schemes...cover and balance, etc...would all be better ideas...especially when you get to the higher-levels...

__________________
Blog: An American Coach Down Under - http://keithscarlett.blogspot.com/
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

COPYRIGHT @ 2004 - 2016 AND-AGAIN, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED