Soccer coaching forum
and-again soccer forum
Register  |   |   |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 3 of 3      Prev   1   2   3
mzbrand

Registered:
Posts: 1,739
Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJBrown

 

2) A team would be best served to have multiple coaches when employing a zonal system... a defensive coordinator / specialist, if you will, can be a huge asset.

 

 

This is great advice.  I've done this at all ages -- in fact it's how I started in coaching (I assisted the head coach by running the defenders for my daughter's first couple of years).  It's a great way to teach an organized defense at any age.  Start with 1st defender/2nd defender and work your way to a flat 4 (well, I hope to some day!).

 

 

mzbrand

Registered:
Posts: 1,739
Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotsoc

As for the FB4, I agree with RM1 up to a point however the cover and balance should be slightly offset with a bigger offset between the pressure and cover player, the far side player should be slightly furthest back as part of his role is to cover the area in behind the others.

 

Doesn't this depend on whether you're playing an offsides line or not?  I've often played and seen professionals play with two or three backs flat, although in that situation there would be an attacking forward at the line as well.

 

But then you get into the question of how to beat the through ball....

 

coachmarino

Registered:
Posts: 621
Reply with quote  #43 

Well...count me as one who would never subscribe to the following...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mzbrand
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJBrown

 

2) A team would be best served to have multiple coaches when employing a zonal system... a defensive coordinator / specialist, if you will, can be a huge asset.

 

 

This is great advice.  I've done this at all ages -- in fact it's how I started in coaching (I assisted the head coach by running the defenders for my daughter's first couple of years).  It's a great way to teach an organized defense at any age.  Start with 1st defender/2nd defender and work your way to a flat 4 (well, I hope to some day!).

 

 

mzbrand

Registered:
Posts: 1,739
Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmarino

Well...count me as one who would never subscribe to the following... 

Why?

 

AFB

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 6,420
Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzbrand
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmarino

Well...count me as one who would never subscribe to the following... 

Why?

 

 

I wouldn't because the defense is an integral part of the offense and the offense is the first line of the defense.  They need to train and work together.

 

The midfield in particular is as much a part of the defense in any defense scheme as the defenders. 

 

I can see having a coach on staff who is a "specialist" in defense and assists in developing the entire team's defense and perhaps many teams' defenses within the club. 

 

But, split authority is a recipe for disaster for it leads to the two teams rather wearing the same jerseys on the field often creating a lack of coordination on transition and the offense believing there is no need to support the defense and defenders seeing no need to aid in the attack.  You can develop gaps in both as players do not train together and do not interchange positions when it is necessary.  You also can have coaching conflicts.


__________________
Some wisdom from Winston Churchill:

"Once in a while you will stumble upon the truth but most of us manage to pick ourselves up and hurry along as if nothing had happened."

"You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else."
AFB

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 6,420
Reply with quote  #46 

Jim,

 

A good answer.

 

I would add that another way to view breaking a zone is to pull the defense apart. 

 

You can switch the ball quickly, but a good zone will respond intelligently.  The far side defender (balance) is closer to the far side and though the ball moves quickly, because he will have a shorter distance.  The switch can pull the defense to one side, and the return switch can cause them to return, but you are counting on the defense making a mistake.

 

I think a better way to pull the defense apart is to create dilemmas for the particular defenders.  Dilemmas come in many forms - a dangerous player(s) that is moving as though he will go through the line of the zone and be in a position to receive a flighted ball that is sent over the line; clocking plays that seek to pull the defender out of line and possibly deep into the defensive mid; attacking with the dribble while 2nd attackers make runs at the cover and 1st balancing defender freezing them. 

 

There are other methods, including the switch, run the ball down the wing and cross.  The cross changes the play away from a zone to more of a man marking defense, one you can program if your players can deliver a driven cross to specific locations, and especially if you have a chance to decide the match up.  

 

You can also take long shots, if you have the players who can hit hard, accurate shots.

 

Just a different way of looking at the same basic thing.    


__________________
Some wisdom from Winston Churchill:

"Once in a while you will stumble upon the truth but most of us manage to pick ourselves up and hurry along as if nothing had happened."

"You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else."
mzbrand

Registered:
Posts: 1,739
Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFB

 

But, split authority is a recipe for disaster for it leads to the two teams rather wearing the same jerseys on the field often creating a lack of coordination on transition and the offense believing there is no need to support the defense and defenders seeing no need to aid in the attack.  You can develop gaps in both as players do not train together and do not interchange positions when it is necessary.  You also can have coaching conflicts.

Sorry, I may have misspoke.  I never intended to suggest split authority or two separate sub-teams.  Just that there are situations in games and during practices where it's useful to have one person helping the defense organize.

 

When I play this is usually the keeper or one of the center backs.  For my u-youngers it's an assistant.

 

 

 

JimN

Registered:
Posts: 3,944
Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFB

Jim,

A good answer.

I would add that another way to view breaking a zone is to pull the defense apart.

You can switch the ball quickly, but a good zone will respond intelligently. The far side defender (balance) is closer to the far side and though the ball moves quickly, because he will have a shorter distance. The switch can pull the defense to one side, and the return switch can cause them to return, but you are counting on the defense making a mistake.

I think a better way to pull the defense apart is to create dilemmas for the particular defenders. Dilemmas come in many forms - a dangerous player(s) that is moving as though he will go through the line of the zone and be in a position to receive a flighted ball that is sent over the line; clocking plays that seek to pull the defender out of line and possibly deep into the defensive mid; attacking with the dribble while 2nd attackers make runs at the cover and 1st balancing defender freezing them.

There are other methods, including the switch, run the ball down the wing and cross. The cross changes the play away from a zone to more of a man marking defense, one you can program if your players can deliver a driven cross to specific locations, and especially if you have a chance to decide the match up.

You can also take long shots, if you have the players who can hit hard, accurate shots.

Just a different way of looking at the same basic thing.



I started to go further into this type of an idea, but then got rid of it because I was afraid it would end in an AFB length post.   Good stuff, and here is one way that I put this information to my teams.

We want to keep the ball moving, so that the opponents have to make decisions and adjustments.  We want our players off the ball to move in ways that force our opponents to make decisions and adjustments.  As the opponents make these decisions and movements, more spaces and gaps open up that we can take advantage of.  At that point, it goes back to what I said before - can we move the ball more quickly than they can react, individually and as a group?

I like it when threads get to this point, when there is real info being tossed around, even debated.

cm - good to see you making an appearance!  Hope you can stick around a bit.

__________________
players are not possessions
develop the individual

about my job
other ramblings
JimN

Registered:
Posts: 3,944
Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzbrand
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFB

But, split authority is a recipe for disaster for it leads to the two teams rather wearing the same jerseys on the field often creating a lack of coordination on transition and the offense believing there is no need to support the defense and defenders seeing no need to aid in the attack. You can develop gaps in both as players do not train together and do not interchange positions when it is necessary. You also can have coaching conflicts.

Sorry, I may have misspoke. I never intended to suggest split authority or two separate sub-teams. Just that there are situations in games and during practices where it's useful to have one person helping the defense organize.

When I play this is usually the keeper or one of the center backs. For my u-youngers it's an assistant.



Which players constitute "the defense"?

I know why cm and AFB reacted the way they did.  I have seen teams - one is a local HS team that consistently has very talented players delivered to it from a variety of clubs - that quite literally have "offense" and "defense" coaches.  This is definitely not the way to go for a flowing game like ours.

__________________
players are not possessions
develop the individual

about my job
other ramblings
TJBrown

Registered:
Posts: 2,831
Reply with quote  #50 

Catching up on my reading post season...

 

Who ever mentioned anything about split authority?

 

One of the best experiences I have had as a coach was being part of a 4 person staff. We could break practice work down into specific positional work maybe 15 minutes each day before reassembling in small groups or going straight to full team work... is that split authority? If so, I am all for it because that approach to coaching was extremely effective with that group of players.

 

My belief is that players should be able to play multiple positions... be interchangeable while recognizing that certain specific skills are more position specific than others are... for instance, I like my forwards to be able to play back to goal, receive, turn or distribute... not something I am so crazy about my back line doing on a regular basis.

 

Having a coach that can work with the defense, a defensive coordinator, if you will... did I ever infer that this person would work strictly with a back line? Or were we talking about a defensive system... a system in which all 11 players must understand and execute their particular roles... including transitioning to offense... coordinated movement to clear a path to a target player for instance... and so on.

 

Split authority?

 

Give me break.... sigh.


__________________
Whatever happened to.... Nah, don't want to go there.
KeiththeKoach

Registered:
Posts: 2,172
Reply with quote  #51 

TJ.  You did say in relation to a defense coach "when employing a zonal system".  The inferences drawn are hardly surprising.

 

Makes much more sense as you now describe it and I have had similar enjoyable experiences.  Your comment re backs to goal is also interesting and whilst I understand it, we should not forget that defenders are often receiving backs to goal from dead ball situations (eg. goal kicks, throws) and in build up play that often mirrors the action of strikers further up the park. 

TJBrown

Registered:
Posts: 2,831
Reply with quote  #52 

MikeS,

 

Not such a simply question to answer.

 

My particular style of zonal defense relies heavily on proper cover but in conjunction with the individual defensive triangle. I ask the goal keeper to not only make the proper defensive alignment calls but to also continually scan / take pictures of other areas of the field when possible to coordinate balancing the field. The specifics of these calls depends on whether we are seeking to play a pressing style of defense, a standard pressure on ball style of defense or are in retreat mode / soft pressure defending.

 

It is a bit complicated at first glance but is really common sense stuff once the entire defensive philosophy / strategy is understood by the goal keeper - this is why I have my goal keepers set-up, explain and coordinate much of our defensive drill work/ ssg's... coach on the field in-training is the way I look at this. I often spend extra time before practice or between practice sessions going over specific details of the defense / that days defensive work utilizing tapes/DVD's or dry erase boards... classroom stuff.

 

It is time consuming but the results are worth it, imo.

 

I offer as an example this past high school season... I left a well-established program (who is in regional play this week with a real shot of making state and even winning state... sigh) to work with a second year varsity program. In it's first year of existence the team had fared well but had given up some ridiculous goal totals... 9 in one game, 6 in another and so on. This season I worked with the goalkeepers and "coordinated" the defense with the result being not allowing more than 2 goals in any given game. 11-5-2 overall record. This was accomplished with a sophomore goalkeeper and a back line comprised of 1 senior, 1 junior, 1 sophomore and 1 freshman. It worked for us because my sophomore GK... by the end of the season... was playing exceptionally well in goal and coordinating the defense so well that I rarely had to do anything but watch... even when they made a mistake... the GK (and defenders) knew what it was and how to instruct them to correct it. Yes, we did allow some goals I was not pleased about and I believe we could have been 15-3 very easily but we suffered some growing pains along the way. Next season... well, if everyone returning improves as they should over the next 9 months....


__________________
Whatever happened to.... Nah, don't want to go there.
JimN

Registered:
Posts: 3,944
Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJBrown

2) A team would be best served to have multiple coaches when employing a zonal system... a defensive coordinator / specialist, if you will, can be a huge asset.



TJ - you may not think so, but this line will read to many as having a coach dedicated to just teaching and organizing the team's defensive efforts.  I understand that this is not what you intended, but surely, after your sigh , you can see how it could be read in a way that would sound like "split authority", right?

btw, I have seen such instances, and that is why I read it that way.

__________________
players are not possessions
develop the individual

about my job
other ramblings
twinntom

Registered:
Posts: 1
Reply with quote  #54 
Amusing to come to the thread so long after it wound up. I agree with much that's been said, on each side. One thing that's important to keep in mind in re security blanket: if your team is weak at scoring, they'd do well to be strong defending. At least that's the rationale I always saw used in our leagues. We didn't have many potent attacking players.

Rather often it was the stopper leading in scoring or assists because that's where a plurality of coaches put their savviest players.

Also, I would say a central DM plays just the same role as the stopper in most systems that play one.

Lastly, a canny set of marking backs knows when to leave the coaching and do the playing (sorry coaches, twas ever thus).

coachart

Registered:
Posts: 7
Reply with quote  #55 
Glad I found this forum.  I am at a crossroads with the high school varsity I am coaching.

This is my second year coaching this team and there is a learning curve involved. 

I have coached my daughter's youth teams for over six years now.  My U14 club team is pretty talented and I use a zonal 4-4-2 flat four which allows my OBs to push up and overlap with my mids very effectively. 

My HS team, on the other hand, is a different animal.  Although I prefer to play with a flat four, I have not had much time with them.  Also, several of my players have limited experience and hence, a limited understanding of the game and tactics.

I tried going with a 4-5-1 counter attacking stance that the girls are still trying to understand.  I do have three very talented players and was using a natural center mid at OM for a diamond for her speed, which is good.  However, against a pretty strong team, I recognized that two of my best players are very effective attacking as forwards and that my top four players are capable of holding possession against good pressure, so we are not constrained to counter attacking solely.

I am going to try to teach a 4-2-2-2 with a square top.  I will have to convince my natural center mid to come back on defense and my best athletic forward to drop back to create a 4-5-1 at times.  I have been trying to have the backs keep a deep line and my two d-mids to keep the game in front of them.  A friend of mine suggest I go with a sweeper behind three backs since I am trying to keep a deep line.  Two of my backs have very little playing experience.  My best sweeper candidate has experence but she is slow and short.  My keeper is short and doesn't normally play keeper with her club.

I would like to play with four to take up more space in the back but I think the sweeper suggestion has merit.  Any advice?
lovewow

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2
Reply with quote  #56 
The boys are going to take several months to learn it though and we'll give up a lot of goals in some games until we nail it down.
__________________
I like fashion life and go to buy cheap pandora jewellry.
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

COPYRIGHT @ 2004 - 2016 AND-AGAIN, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED