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mzbrand

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieB

So are we suggesting that there is a one size fits all athlete?

Don't different athletic disciplines require different athletic qualities?

Does a 100m sprinter require the same athletic qualities as a marathon runner?

Does a long jumper require the same athletic qualities as a hurdler?

I could go on.

Soccer requires more than athleticism, it requires skills in addition to athleiticism. Pure atlheticism alone will not make a player a soccer player.

Maybe the problem in the US is that you equate everything with athletic ability and forget about the rest. Keep doing so and the gap between yourselves and the rest will get even wider.



As someone else said recently, talent is a starting point.  But take that nationally ranked sprinter and add 10 years of soccer development and you're likely to an extremely dangerous striker.

Not that this is the only kind of player on in the international game, but I would guess that the real playmakers in the sport would probably have done well in several others as well.

WillieB

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzbrand
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFB

To suggest that we are not successful because the "better athletes" go to other sports is to misanalyze the environment and players.



I disagree. Athleticism can be a huge (although by no means the only) factor in soccer. In the US there is neither the financial nor social motivation to keep the best motivated and gifted players.

And don't discount playthough's last comment. For boys, what the girls think is going to be a big factor in motivating them to switch to a popular sport. According to my recently graduated daughter soccer is still not considered a real man's game, although I suspect that its reputation is improving.

 

Ok, so first of all what is your definition of athleticism?

 

Here's a few of the soccer greats past and present so tell me where abouts they fit on your athleticism scale?

 

We'll start offf with the player I consider to be the world's all time #1

 

Pele

 

and then the player who I consider to be all time #2

 

Maradona

 

and some others in no particular order

 

Zidane

George Best (remember he used to practice in the pub and in the bedroom)

Jimmy Johnstone

Johan Cryuuf

Franz Beckenbauer

 

 

That's enough to be going on with.

 

These players were all fit (well maybe except Bestie) however the one thinmg they had above all others was pure unadulterated skill.  Let's face it Jimmy Johnstone would be blown over by a strong sneeze, except when he had a ball at his feet as big strong athletic defenders couldn't even get it from him.

 

Give me skill over athleticism anyday

 

 

 

 

 


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AFB

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Reply with quote  #23 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mzbrand

As someone else said recently, talent is a starting point.  But take that nationally ranked sprinter and add 10 years of soccer development and you're likely to an extremely dangerous striker.

 

If you get a soccer player you are as likely to get a Paul Wright - fast, but hardly intimidating.  Speed is a wonderful asset.  It is not sufficient. 

 

I also find a small dash of irony in how many on one occasion write that what we need is creativity, but on others on how athleticism is the be all.  (By the way that is not directed at you MZ, it is just a general observation.)

 

MZ, you are also in the great state of Texas.  What you suggest when it comes to the preferences of females maybe true there or in the the recesses of Indiana or western, rural Illinois, but it is not true of all other places.  It is also not athleticism. 

 

Willie makes the same point I did - athleticism is not just speed, it is not just strength or endurance or quickness or hand eye coordination.  The great athlete is a sum of many things, each in balance and that balance is different for different sports.  Further, a great player in many sports has to be more than simply athletic.  They have to be athletes; they also have to be more and that more is often more important. 

 

I see many young men in our club, on other clubs, in college, and on various State and Regional Teams.  Many, many of them are truly great athletes. 

 

If someone wants excuses for a lack of performance of our teams we need to look elsewhere.  If someone thinks soccer is not athletic or physical enough, they really ought to play the game before opining.


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mzbrand

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieB

Give me skill over athleticism anyday



Give me both!  And if I can't have them in one player, then I'd like a team with both.

Are you saying that Ronaldinho or C. Ronaldo could not succeed at any other sport if they'd spent the same amount of time playing it?

In the US most really good athletes play several sports, and they often have to choose one to specialize in as they enter college or professional leagues.  Some even choose soccer, although it's rare.

mzbrand

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFB

MZ, you are also in the great state of Texas. What you suggest when it comes to the preferences of females maybe true there or in the the recesses of Indiana or western, rural Illinois, but it is not true of all other places.



Do you know somewhere this is true in the US?  My wife would love to find a nice soccer stud for my daughter, but I doubt we'd ever convince here in Texas.  Maybe we should encourage her to relocate. 

AFB

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzbrand
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFB

MZ, you are also in the great state of Texas. What you suggest when it comes to the preferences of females maybe true there or in the recesses of Indiana or western, rural Illinois, but it is not true of all other places.



Do you know somewhere this is true in the US?  My wife would love to find a nice soccer stud for my daughter, but I doubt we'd ever convince here in Texas.  Maybe we should encourage her to relocate. 

Take I-35 North approximately 550 miles till you reach 135th Street in Olathe, Kansas.  Turn East, go about seven miles.  You will be there.

 

Or drive approximately 1000 miles west going on I-30 to I-20 then to I-10.  You will reach Phoenix.  Then take the 101 North to Scottsdale. 

True both places.  True a lot of other points in between and a little further on as well.  You need to get out more. 

 

Texas is a great place, but don't you find that "whole other country" a bit confining at times?


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Some wisdom from Winston Churchill:

"Once in a while you will stumble upon the truth but most of us manage to pick ourselves up and hurry along as if nothing had happened."

"You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else."
mzbrand

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFB
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzbrand
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFB

MZ, you are also in the great state of Texas. What you suggest when it comes to the preferences of females maybe true there or in the recesses of Indiana or western, rural Illinois, but it is not true of all other places.



Do you know somewhere this is true in the US? My wife would love to find a nice soccer stud for my daughter, but I doubt we'd ever convince here in Texas. Maybe we should encourage her to relocate.

Take I-35 North approximately 550 miles till you reach 135th Street in Olathe, Kansas. Turn East, go about seven miles. You will be there.

Or drive approximately 1000 miles west going on I-30 to I-20 then to I-10. You will reach Phoenix. Then take the 101 North to Scottsdale.

True both places. True a lot of other points in between and a little further on as well. You need to get out more.

Texas is a great place, but don't you find that "whole other country" a bit confining at times?



Ah, don't mistake me.  I'm a Hoosier (born and raised).  You have to be born here to be a Texan.

BTW, I-20 is about 5 miles from my house.  Do I really need to take I-30 for 1000 miles to get to it? 

Playtough, you might want to write those directions down.  You may be needing them in a couple of years.  I sure could have used them when I grew up in your neck of the woods. 

WillieB

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzbrand
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieB

Give me skill over athleticism anyday



Give me both!  And if I can't have them in one player, then I'd like a team with both.

Are you saying that Ronaldinho or C. Ronaldo could not succeed at any other sport if they'd spent the same amount of time playing it?

That's a Russ question

 

I don't know as I've never seen them play any other sport.  No doubt they would make good runners, don't know about great though and i don't know at what distance.  could they excel at the long jump, high jump, would they be good at baseball, American football?  I don't know.  Soccer is a game played using the foot, good soccer foot-skills do not equate to any other sport that I know of.  I agree that having good athleticism may make an verage player above-average but all the greats have that something extra - that X-factor.

 

To use the above players as an example, C. Ronaldo has great physique, maybe the guy could even be a model.  Rohaldinho on the other hand, well I think he could do with a good feed

  


In the US most really good athletes play several sports, and they often have to choose one to specialize in as they enter college or professional leagues.  Some even choose soccer, although it's rare.


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GHMANEGER

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Reply with quote  #29 

It is like saying painting got the best artists.

 

Wrong by defenition.

 

 

p.s.

I don't think Ronaldinho and C. Ronaldo could excele in Basketball American Football or any other sport the thing is their talent is sport specific: that's why they so good football players because they have qualities and parameters of that specific game. now it's only my p.s. the first 2 frases are what I treally wanted to say.


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JohnR

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Reply with quote  #30 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieB
Maybe the problem in the US is that you equate everything with athletic ability and forget about the rest.

That is often our problem.

 

On the other hand, we try not to ignore reality. And the reality of EPL is quite obvious. Bent, Bent, Dafoe, Yakubu, Henry, Heskey, Adabayor, Drogba, Anelka, Diouf, Kanu, Lua-Lua, Vassell, Roberts, McCarthy, John, Martins, Euell, Kazim-Richards, Harewood ... the EPL is loaded with forwards of West African descent. Not East African, not Asian, not Hispanic, but West African.

 

Footspeed (and size) is the answer. Athleticism. The East Africans play soccer on the dirt and streets and beaches and grass, as do the Asians and the Hispanics. But they do not have as any fast (and large) players, and so they do not have the future EPL forwards.

chroniciguana

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Reply with quote  #31 
Soccer players the best athletes? Possibly. A good case can be made. A good case can also be made that jockeys are the best athletes.

When I coached Up North and we had the old soccer v. pointy thing going on in the fall, I never heard a soccer coach complain that pointy was taking all the best athletes. But pointy coaches were always, always whining that soccer was stealing the top athletes away from pointy.

I coached the older brother of the LA Galaxy's Quavas Kirk in HS. The kid (the brother) was a stud. Not a day went by without the pointy coach graciously explaining that having this kid play soccer was a "waste of talent." Same with one of my defenders, a guy who was about 6-4, 225 and change.

In the early 90s my old high school had more than 70 kids come out for soccer one fall. Meanwhile, the pointy coach (who wasn't a "soccer hater" by any definition) was looking at fewer than two dozen. Just before announcing his cuts, the soccer coach gave the pointy coach an opportunity to invite those who didn't make the soccer team to consider pointy. "We have bands, cheerleaders, lots of people in the stands ..."

The soccer coach was going to be cutting "athletes" in favor of those who had developed the skills. The pointy coach was looking for athletes. He knew he could teach them the "skills." And he did.

When we moved to Florida where soccer is a winter sport, my son was invited to take over the kicking job with the pointy team in the fall. Aside from running pass routes and playing touch in the back yard, he had never played a minute of pointy.

Yet something interesting happened during spring drills. He decided he wanted to do more than extra points and field goals. He began working out with the defensive backs. When the spring game rolled around, he had landed a starting cornerback job.

When the guys on the soccer team saw this, a bunch of them came out for pointy when real practice began in August. They were faster, stronger and had more endurance than the pointy guys. The result: When the season began, we had two soccer players at linebacker and all, yeah all, of the defensive backs were soccer players. They were all juniors with no pointy background. But they had come in and displaced kids who had been playing Pop Warner all of their lives, and had started for the team the previous year.

It's a trend that has continued in the years that followed. The pointy coach, BTW, now thinks that soccer is wonderful. And the soccer coach, who has reaped the benefits of pointy's weight and training programs, has become a big fan of pointy.

Soccer players might not be the best athletes, but my experience is that as a group, they trump pointy.


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GHMANEGER

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieB
Maybe the problem in the US is that you equate everything with athletic ability and forget about the rest.

That is often our problem.

 

On the other hand, we try not to ignore reality. And the reality of EPL is quite obvious. Bent, Bent, Dafoe, Yakubu, Henry, Heskey, Adabayor, Drogba, Anelka, Diouf, Kanu, Lua-Lua, Vassell, Roberts, McCarthy, John, Martins, Euell, Kazim-Richards, Harewood ... the EPL is loaded with forwards of West African descent. Not East African, not Asian, not Hispanic, but West African.

 

Footspeed (and size) is the answer. Athleticism. The East Africans play soccer on the dirt and streets and beaches and grass, as do the Asians and the Hispanics. But they do not have as any fast (and large) players, and so they do not have the future EPL forwards.

EPL = shity football.overated media. bad coaches. no technic.

 

Take Arsenal MANU and Chelsea and what do you have?

 

an amature league.

 

the real league is CL.

 

and I don't see beach footballers having any trouble dominaitaing when they want.


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JohnR

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Reply with quote  #33 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHMANEGER
and I don't see beach footballers having any trouble dominaitaing when they want.

Uh-huh.

GHMANEGER

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Reply with quote  #34 

Let's say brasil is the best team in the world. Half of them are beach/street fottballers.

 

You can add Messi, Zidane, top japanise players, Cantona. Best.

 

I have no argument with you my friend all up top level players started street you like it you don't like it.

 

Club footballers are much more predictable and less creative.

 

Beach/Street fotballers have a bigger agenda than escape from poverty and play in the shity EPL.

 

I mean I am better striker than crouch today and I don't need to practice that much to be better than him. Only in england he Can play as he does.


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dadinsavannah

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Reply with quote  #35 

My college's pointy team has had at least two star athletes that grew up playing soccer.  One played soccer only until high school, now plays for the Seattle Seahawks.  The other played soccer when he lived in CA, then started playing football when he moved to Virginia.  Now he's an all ACC linebacker.  Assuming he stays healthy he will play in the NFL after next year.  Both of them have credited soccer for their quick feet and good balance.  But both of them would be crazy not to follow the money.  NFL vs MLS $$$, no comparison today.  Maybe down the road, but not today.

 

Bobby

TheGiss

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Reply with quote  #36 

In  NE Ohio the sport (team) that is successful is getting the best athetes. As an example, after our boys soccer team made it to the district finals unexpectedly, the next year, a large number of incomign freshman who played multipel sports chose soccer.

For the last few years our pointy ball team has been awful and their numbers are dropping-- those good athletes are running x-country, playing soccer, ort in on ecase took up golf and qualified for states in his second year of playing.

As I have posted previously, our girls soccer team regularly loses athletes ot our LAX team, which has been nationally ranked for several years depsite being a public school program. Several other of my soccer players use it simply to stay in shape for LAX. Plus, LAX is not a OHSAA sponsored sport, so the coaching contact rules are different and the current coach, who has built a wonderful program (and ironically was one of my son's first soccer coaches) can run a year-round program, instead of the volunteer-based off-season program we have for soccer.

Success breeds success and many kids choose sports with winning recors for no other reason than that.


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themuzicman

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Reply with quote  #37 
I dunno...

I still wonder what US Soccer would be like if athletes like Lebron James, Kobe Bryant and Allen Iverson had taken up soccer rather than basketball, and put the same passion into it. 

Muz


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geneseo

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Reply with quote  #38 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieB
...good soccer foot-skills do not equate to any other sport that I know of. 

Good feet are good for all sports I know of.

 

geneseo

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Reply with quote  #39 

Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman
I dunno...

I still wonder what US Soccer would be like if athletes like Lebron James, Kobe Bryant and Allen Iverson had taken up soccer rather than basketball, and put the same passion into it. 

Muz

 

I don't really think about it too much.  But now and then it is brought up here and elsewhere.  Some time back I read about some kid from Milwaukee or Green Bay that hadn't played soccer until somewhere between 14 and 18 and is now playing in England in the 1st or 2nd division.  He said he had no skill, just pure speed.

 

You hear things like that, then you go watch a major college basketball game or NBA game from the first ten rows and you just can't believe how fast those guys are.  I saw Mookie Blalock play against Bulls about eight years ago from the 11th row.  Jaw dropping speed, especially changing direction.  I also got to watch Dee Brown and the Illini practice once.  You just can't describe or even realize the kind of speed that Brown has until you're next to it.  I remember watching and wondering how Beasley's speed compared and then asking my son how he'd like to deal with a forward that had that kind of speed.

 

I'm not going to sit and moan about who plays what.  That is the athlete's decision and I wish all kids success in whatever sport they choose to play.  But I do hope someday that soccer in the US is attractive enough to draw those players that are a little too short for major college basketball.

 

 

dadinsavannah

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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geneseo

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieB
...good soccer foot-skills do not equate to any other sport that I know of. 

Good feet are good for all sports I know of.

 

I agree 100%, good footwork is the foundation of any sport.  When I first started taking tennis lessons, the first thing the pro was that my feet were all wrong.  After we got that started the right way, she started working on the grip, stroke, etc.  Even when she completely made over my serve, she started with the footwork.

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