Soccer coaching forum
and-again soccer forum
Register  |   |   |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 2 of 2      Prev   1   2
scoachd

Registered:
Posts: 2,812
Reply with quote  #21 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimN
It really doesn't make me wonder John.  It seems to me that the difference in time spent between Henry and the Americans you mention may be correlated in their level of technical ability.

Me neither.  The difference is between 1000 and 100,000 is the ability to perform a skill consistently without thinking.  The difference between a guy like Preki who could get a shot off with his left even though everyone knew it was coming and the more typical player that is a quarter step slower and sends the ball flying over the goal if he does manage to beat a defender.

JohnR

Registered:
Posts: 6,793
Reply with quote  #22 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimN
It seems to me that the difference in time spent between Henry and the Americans you mention may be correlated in their level of technical ability.

So it takes 200,000 reps to be an EPL star, and 10,000 reps to become a U.S. star?

 

MUST .... RESIST .... MADDOG .... MUST .... RESIST ....MADDOG

JimN

Registered:
Posts: 3,944
Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimN
It seems to me that the difference in time spent between Henry and the Americans you mention may be correlated in their level of technical ability.

So it takes 200,000 reps to be an EPL star, and 10,000 reps to become a U.S. star?

MUST .... RESIST .... MADDOG .... MUST .... RESIST ....MADDOG



Funny.

But, in a word, yes.  No doubt that our league is not the same level as the EPL - one of the three elite leagues in the world, imo.  Remember, the others you mentioned are capable of playing in that league, but not starring in that league.  To tie in with the other discussion, I would also rate Henry as a better overall athlete than the others - part of his genius is in blowing past defenders and being so fast that he is uncatchable.  Couple his athleticism with such technical ability - technical ability that an outstanding athlete like Twellman does not possess - and you have the small difference that turns out to be a not so small difference.

The application of technique (skill, decision making) also comes into play.  Being in a training situation that allows a player to test, polish and push these skills regularly from a young age, rather than chasing dualing dreams of football/basketball/baseball and soccer makes a difference, too.

__________________
players are not possessions
develop the individual

about my job
other ramblings
coachkev

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 14,623
Reply with quote  #24 

I think we need a Womens perspective on HOW MANY touches   from a man constitutes good skill ???

berwyncobras

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 797
Reply with quote  #25 

I have asked my kids to practice 15 minutes a day everyday on their own. One of the biggest problems I have is that most of my kids have a hard time controlling the balls that are in the air. I showed them 3 ways of doing this and asked them to practice them, 5 minutes for each one.  If they do it I know they will make progress, I just have to wait and see. I told the parents that I needed their cooperation in making sure they do it.


__________________
Smile now Cry later

scoachd

Registered:
Posts: 2,812
Reply with quote  #26 

A new update:

MAGAZINE   | May 7, 2006
Freakonomics:  A Star Is Made
By STEPHEN J. DUBNER and STEVEN D. LEVITT
Where does talent really come from?

 

"

This success, coupled with later research showing that memory itself is not genetically determined, led Ericsson to conclude that the act of memorizing is more of a cognitive exercise than an intuitive one. In other words, whatever innate differences two people may exhibit in their abilities to memorize, those differences are swamped by how well each person "encodes" the information. And the best way to learn how to encode information meaningfully, Ericsson determined, was a process known as deliberate practice.

Deliberate practice entails more than simply repeating a task — playing a C-minor scale 100 times, for instance, or hitting tennis serves until your shoulder pops out of its socket. Rather, it involves setting specific goals, obtaining immediate feedback and concentrating as much on technique as on outcome.

Ericsson and his colleagues have thus taken to studying expert performers in a wide range of pursuits, including soccer, golf, surgery, piano playing, Scrabble, writing, chess, software design, stock picking and darts. They gather all the data they can, not just performance statistics and biographical details but also the results of their own laboratory experiments with high achievers.

Their work, compiled in the "Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance," a 900-page academic book that will be published next month, makes a rather startling assertion: the trait we commonly call talent is highly overrated. Or, put another way, expert performers — whether in memory or surgery, ballet or computer programming — are nearly always made, not born. And yes, practice does make perfect. These may be the sort of clichés that parents are fond of whispering to their children. But these particular clichés just happen to be true.

Ericsson's research suggests a third cliché as well: when it comes to choosing a life path, you should do what you love — because if you don't love it, you are unlikely to work hard enough to get very good. Most people naturally don't like to do things they aren't "good" at. So they often give up, telling themselves they simply don't possess the talent for math or skiing or the violin. But what they really lack is the desire to be good and to undertake the deliberate practice that would make them better. "

JohnR

Registered:
Posts: 6,793
Reply with quote  #27 

Scoachd -

 

It's a good counterpoint to the general argument about genetic gifts. But I don't fully buy it. Theo Walcott made the English World Cup team despite having only 7 years of soccer experience, in total, counting when he kicked a ball as a child. There are 1000s of young English hopefuls with more "expertise" than him. But none that can beat him in a footrace, apparently.

gordonn

Registered:
Posts: 707
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR

Scoachd -

It's a good counterpoint to the general argument about genetic gifts. But I don't fully buy it. Theo Walcott made the English World Cup team despite having only 7 years of soccer experience, in total, counting when he kicked a ball as a child. There are 1000s of young English hopefuls with more "expertise" than him. But none that can beat him in a footrace, apparently.


and those seven have not been at the highest level (EPL),  he is faster than Henry  seemingly

__________________


MrSoccer

Registered:
Posts: 9,198
Reply with quote  #29 

Skills are like milk they have be practiced as long as your a player or they spoil. They don't have a long shelf life. Let's say a game is cancelled or you have a bye skills can degenerate in a 2 week time frame unless you practice them. Want to keep your ball touch always touch the ball.

 

On free kick takers and guys taking corners even have to practice them all the time, and not just with the team when you practice 2 days a week.

 

It is important to do that. Plus being dangerous on Fks may help keep you as a starter. 


__________________
Only the unloved hate
KeiththeKoach

Registered:
Posts: 2,172
Reply with quote  #30 

It is no co-incidence that the kids you see kicking a ball with their Dads are most often the ones with the best technique.  I would hazard a guess that from the age of around 8 until I was 12 or 13 I kicked the ball against the garden wall at least 100,000 times per year.  I am still able to perform 100 keepie uppies consecutively. 

 

Unfortunately, I was a miler not a sprinter and never got past the semi-pro ranks.  The most embarrassing occasion in my life was being 'discovered' by a scout and immediately rushed into a full professional team as a player (according to the scout) with exceptional dribbling and passing skills.  In the first 45 minutes of my professional debut I did not touch the ball once.  This was pre-subs and I was consigned to the left wing for the second half where I again failed to get a kick. I was 18 years old and had discovered my limitations the hard way. 

 

 

Bird1812

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 4,898
Reply with quote  #31 

Quote:

Or, put another way, expert performers — whether in memory or surgery, ballet or computer programming — are nearly always made, not born. And yes, practice does make perfect.

 

This is EXACTLY what Laureano Ruiz says in his books, most of which I mentioned in a recent discussion with JimN.

 

Quote:

Theo Walcott made the English World Cup team despite having only 7 years of soccer experience, in total, counting when he kicked a ball as a child.

 

Pertinent to this discussion, Walcott was born March 16, 1989.  But I'm suspicious that there isn't more to this story than what is being portrayed.  BTW how tall is he?


__________________
"It's the quality of your effort that counts most and offers the greatest and most long-lasting satisfaction." - John Wooden
JohnR

Registered:
Posts: 6,793
Reply with quote  #32 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bird1812
Pertinent to this discussion, Walcott was born March 16, 1989.  But I'm suspicious that there isn't more to this story than what is being portrayed.  BTW how tall is he?

Seemed about average height in the picture that I saw.

 

The story is pretty simple. Theo started playing soccer relatively late. He immediately scored 10 trillion goals in U11 competition, because he was not only blazing fast, but naturally coordinated & balanced such that he could have pretty good ball control even for a newbie.

 

Six years later, same story. He's still faster than anybody he plays against. He still has good ball control for a (relative) newbie. Apparently, he finishes pretty well, too. And his job for England will likely be as it was as a U11, chase down a ball that is played into space and outrun the defenders.

 

 

Bird1812

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 4,898
Reply with quote  #33 

Wikipedia mentions that he had a great uncle who was a West Indian batsman, Clyde Walcott, chairman of the International Cricket Council and knighted in 1994 for services to cricket, so it would seem that he comes from a "sporting" family.  Maybe he wasn't very good at cricket and quit to pursue soccer at age 11.


__________________
"It's the quality of your effort that counts most and offers the greatest and most long-lasting satisfaction." - John Wooden
scoachd

Registered:
Posts: 2,812
Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR

Scoachd -

 

It's a good counterpoint to the general argument about genetic gifts. But I don't fully buy it. Theo Walcott made the English World Cup team despite having only 7 years of soccer experience, in total, counting when he kicked a ball as a child. There are 1000s of young English hopefuls with more "expertise" than him. But none that can beat him in a footrace, apparently.

Yes and no.  People are created very differently with different innate abilities.  Simple skilled sports like sprinting and long distance running tend to have top performers with very similar genetic traits.  Its not a coincidence that in Olympic 100 meter final's virtually every participant has genetic links to West Africa.  Similarly the greater the single attribute is provides an advantage (length in basketball), the more likely you are going to get players that possess that trait.  Yet the player voted the best player in the NBA for the past two years is not particularly long as compared to the general population.

 

Even if Wolcott never kicked a ball until age 10 (which I believe even less than Freddy Adu's stated age), he may not have actually been at a significant disadvantge if he instead got a strong base of speed, quickness and balance skills.  If he then added soccer specific skills to a strong athletic base, he would actually end up further ahead than an athlete with strong soccer specific skills, but a poor base of movement skills. 

Bird1812

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 4,898
Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR
Scoachd -

It's a good counterpoint to the general argument about genetic gifts. But I don't fully buy it. Theo Walcott made the English World Cup team despite having only 7 years of soccer experience, in total, counting when he kicked a ball as a child. There are 1000s of young English hopefuls with more "expertise" than him. But none that can beat him in a footrace, apparently.


I was looking for some of the articles posted in this thread and came across John's quote now 4 years later and following Chris Waddle's commentary on Walcott not having a "soccer brain" or his having been excluded from England's world cup roster.  Four years ago, at age 17, Walcott would be considered the exception to Ericsson's rule, but today at 21 should we think otherwise?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article7049298.ece

March 4, 2010

Theo Walcott does not understand football, says Chris Waddle


__________________
"It's the quality of your effort that counts most and offers the greatest and most long-lasting satisfaction." - John Wooden
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

COPYRIGHT @ 2004 - 2016 AND-AGAIN, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED