Soccer coaching forum
and-again soccer forum
Register  |   |   |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Oldtimer

Registered:
Posts: 3,243
Reply with quote  #1 
The lengthy article linked here is about the current presidential race.  But the first 20%, about how one style of decision making can be used to destabilize and eventually defeat an opponent, has a lot of relevance to understanding and training the decision making process of athletes.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/12/16/military-strategist-explains-why-donald-trump-leads-and-how-he-will-fail/

The remainder, which you can take or leave, uses the ideas and vocabulary to explain the political contest and how it might play out.

If anyone has seen the OODA Loop described using purely soccer or sports situations, please do supply the links. 

__________________
"Winning is important. The lessons learned by winning and losing in sports last a lifetime. However, the goal of every youth coach should be to help young soccer players understand and enjoy the process of participation and to teach the skill necessary to succeed. When the pressure to win begins too early, the passion and the love for the game can be lost." - Jay Martin, editor, NSCAA Soccer Journal
coachkev

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 14,617
Reply with quote  #2 
Got to remember though, that OODA was conceptualized for Air fighter Pilots so its more military than non military.
everything

Registered:
Posts: 1,228
Reply with quote  #3 
I've always thought this idea is over-analytical. However, reading up through the first few Trump paragraphs, it seems like the main idea is to mess up the "observation" and "orientation" part of the opponent so their decision and action doesn't work right. 

We could also simply call this "set the defense". Kind of like making them plant a foot.

So I guess I sort of see how the concept is actually very simple. Here's my first attempt to look at Pep vs Luis Enrique Barcelona using OODA:

It used to be that Guardiola era FC Barcelona completely disoriented every team. According to this OODA theory, it's because everyone tried to react to the one touch triangles in such a way as to think they were just about to get the ball. As long as they fell for the trap in a very continuous way, spaces opened up. Eventually, everyone studied what was happening (observation) and adjusted (orientation), changed their decisions (do not fall for the trap, just concede the possession but not the territory) and actions (get and keep better shape; there is time since Barcelona doesn't seem to fast-counter, only certain pressure from the bus, special attention to Messi, vs. risky high press, either way be ready w/ a new OODA loop: be sure to counter at high speed). 

That helped lead to less effectiveness from the tiki taka (some of it was player changes, most notably Fabregas) until Luis Enrique came along and revised Barcelona's OODA loop so that it would be observe-orient (does opponent do parked bus or high press), and decision would be possession game to break down the bus or fast counter of counter. Maybe a sort of "attack by draw" (Bruce Lee), make the opponent feel more comfortable coming forward so there is space behind. This "ambiguity" means defenses are again not able to as quickly observe and orient. Observation is pretty easy through watching many games but real-time orientation can be much more difficult. Even Guardiola's Bayern had difficulty. In the first leg of the UCL semis, he went with man-marking and a three man defense, quickly re-oriented and changed to a back four when that wasn't working. The noted "chaos" and less structured/disciplined approach of Luis Enrique Barcelona is really just another ambiguity that messes up the opponents' OODA loops (they won't fall for the tiki taka traps now so easily but they are disoriented either by tiki taka traps or by the lethal MSN direct or counter game: either way they are in big trouble). So is the less strict tiki taka for real or just a deliberate disorienting illusion causing everyone, especially top opponents, to fall into the same but different trap again (they think they can get the ball further up the field now; after all, Barcelona's possession % is objectively LOWER now)?  
Oldtimer

Registered:
Posts: 3,243
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachkev
Got to remember though, that OODA was conceptualized for Air fighter Pilots so its more military than non military.


As was "The Art of War."

Everything's take, putting Barcelona's history in OOPA Loop terms, is well done, especially when done so quickly.

__________________
"Winning is important. The lessons learned by winning and losing in sports last a lifetime. However, the goal of every youth coach should be to help young soccer players understand and enjoy the process of participation and to teach the skill necessary to succeed. When the pressure to win begins too early, the passion and the love for the game can be lost." - Jay Martin, editor, NSCAA Soccer Journal
AFB

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 6,412
Reply with quote  #5 
It is a shame Larry Paul (posting as larryp) left the forum and deleted all of his posts. He often brought the OODA Loop analysis into discussions and was a strong proponent of Boyd. You can still find echos of his thoughts when he was quoted and replied to. See e.g., http://andagain.websitetoolbox.com/post/formations-and-the-creation-of-time-and-space-4997153?highlight=ooda&pid=1266361252

I would strongly recommend doing a search using "OODA" and reviewing his comments.

The process is sound in any dynamic system, be it the tactics of dog fights or soccer.

__________________
Some wisdom from Winston Churchill:

"Once in a while you will stumble upon the truth but most of us manage to pick ourselves up and hurry along as if nothing had happened."

"You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else."
everything

Registered:
Posts: 1,228
Reply with quote  #6 
Thanks, Oldtimer. It's an interesting lens through which to view our game and process.

I guess as a coach you are always observing, orienting, deciding, acting. You decide on the overall team OODA loop for the season, a game, two legs, etc. Maybe you help players have a specific OODA loop with a few basic If This Then That rules. If you can do the OODA loop very fast during a game or season in response to game or season conditions (like injuries) perhaps you help yourself stay ahead of the competition.
coachkev

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 14,617
Reply with quote  #7 

Is there a term for when a tight end or such fakes to move in order for an opponent to move before the snap in Pointy Football??
The reason I ask is that this occurred to me the most basic sporting equivalent of OODA in action [thumb]

paulee

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 7,853
Reply with quote  #8 
Kev, if they do, it's a foul.  The thing that you will see is the Quarter Back using his voice to trick the defense into thinking that the ball is going to be snapped, causing them to jump offsides.  It's called a "hard count".
__________________
"When you start, you may have to move tons of dirt to find a gold nugget .... but when you start mining for gold, you overlook the dirt."
-Andrew Carnegie
Goal150

Registered:
Posts: 3,098
Reply with quote  #9 
The tight end can go in motion, changing the "strong" side of the formation which forces the defense to observe and re-orient their defensive arrangement. 
coachkev

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 14,617
Reply with quote  #10 

In soccer, the OODA loop applies to any two-sided conflict (the full match), whether the participants are individuals in hand-to-hand combat (1v1) or large military formations (Team vs. Team).

Orientation shapes observation (what we see), shapes decisions (based on what we see), shapes action (what to do about what we see), and is in turn shaped by the feedback and other phenomena coming into our sensing or observational ‘window’ (other players around them).

The entire “loop” is not just about the orientation of the ‘conflict’), it is an ongoing many-sided decision making, multi-faceted referencing process of decision, action, assessment and rejection.

Remembering what it stands for makes you appreciate its effectiveness in a team competitive sport like soccer. Its a constant flow of 4 elements that synergise with teammates.
Observe >> Orient >> Decide >> Act

Team with the ball:
The player without the ball observes what is happening with the player on the ball AND the objective of the team so they can orientate to be in prime position should the player with the ball pass to them.
They decide on where to move to and then moves.

Player with the ball:
Observes the opponent challenging them (1v1), orientates to perform the desired action then acts.

Team without the ball:
The nearest challenger observes the opponent with the ball and orientates themselves to position to make the challenge, decides on an action then acts.

Basically, its a never ending process of Seeing/Understanding/Deciding and Acting.
If any one of these 4 is missing or not being delivered then the other three cannot maintain the current success.
If there is no observation then the orientation element can be made. If the observation is there but the orientation is absent then decisions cannot be made.
If there is observation and orientation but no decision is made then no action can take place.
If there is observation, orientation and decision made but no action taken then they have wasted their time.
 
As the great man once said..."He who can handle the quickest rate of change survives" (John Boyd creator of the OODA Loop Model)

 

 

 

coachkev

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 14,617
Reply with quote  #11 

A modern approach that expands the OODA loop is called the SUDAK cycle and uses OODA from the Tactical perspective
See >> Understand >> Decide >> Act >> Know

ATTACKING
Players see:
- where and how are the opponents defending?
- what space can be attacked?
- what mismatches exist?
- who is their key ball player?

From this, players understand:
- the quality of ball position and support and how that determines the attack
- the best option is dictated by the time and space they have?
- they are aware of how best to maintain the attack?

Then from the above a player makes decisions on...
- going over, around or through the defence?
- the most effective tactics for the constantly changing situation
- where and when to use a rehearsed move or improvising and reacting to the defence?

Once they see, understand and decide, then they act by:
- going forward to attack the back line to fix and pressure the defence
- attacking 1v1 by dribbling and powering through contact or passing long for either position or possession?
- supporting to keep possession to maintain continuity

By seeing, understanding, deciding, and acting, this will enable players to know:
- how to improve their attack
- why the attack was successful or unsuccessful in deciding on the outcome of the match?

DEFENDING
Players see:
- where and how are the opponents attacking?
- if all options are covered?
- who will tackle?
- who is supporting?

From this, players understand:
- good communication and organisation stops attacks
- by going forward together shuts down their space and forces errors?
- slowing their attack down will force opponents to kick long and aimlessly?

Then from the above a player makes decisions on...
- staying in line by good communicating?
- getting to the opponent with the ball hard and fast ready to tackle
- reseting fast to reinforce the defence where and when needed?
- identifying their next attack point?

Once they see, understand and decide, then they act by:
- being on the front foot to go forward fast if needed
- winning the contest for the ball
- getting back on the feet and reset fast if going to ground

By seeing, understanding, deciding, and acting, this will enable players to know:
- how to improve their defence
- why the defence was successful or unsuccessful in deciding on the outcome of the match?


 


 


 


 

 

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

COPYRIGHT @ 2004 - 2016 AND-AGAIN, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED