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SoundSoccer

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 1,570
Posted 04/27/12 Reply with quote  #61 
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

You didn't answer my questions though. If Sanchez doesn't go down, do the officials notice Terry's kick and is the offense a red card? IMO, if Sanchez doesn't go down, Terry's kick is still a red card, but it wouldn't be given because the officials wont notice it. Sanchez did what he had to do to draw the official's attention to Terry's red card offense.


Edit:

Answer:
If Sanchez does not use deception then it is likely that Terry does not get a red card for kneeing him.

Opinion:
Both are wrong



__________________
"Yesterday you said Tomorrow"
http://www.soundsoccer.com
santa

Registered: 05/22/10
Posts: 160
Posted 04/28/12 Reply with quote  #62 
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulee
After the European Championships and World Cup and last years CL, the big hubub has been about "How do you beat them?"
Mourinho showed the template, and Chelsea followed through on it.  Will Germany be able to apply it this summer?  Or anyone else?

Here's what I saw:
Don't pressure them up top or in the middle third, let them have the ball there.
Stay compact on defense and don't let them have space between the lines.
Get everyone back in the box and park the bus in front of your goal.
Be as quick as they are, or as close as you can.  Lumbering types like Terry may do well for the hurly-burly of the EPL, with its physical nature and crosses into the box, but with the ball on the ground, he just isn't quick enough.
Interesting point: Watching ManU's youth team in the Dallas Cup Supergroup, their Brazillian opposition made them look slow and tired.  Every one of the English backline was 6'3 and thickly built.  The Brazilians all looked to be about 5'8-6'0, and while athletic, weren't big.
Break their patterns.  Barcelona uses certian patterns that act as a springboard, and are free to improvise within them, much like great jazz musicians.  Take a look at the first goal they scored, that's a pretty common pattern for them.  Chelsea never let them run that again, and the one time they did, they were flagged offside.
Rely on the counterattack.  Germany's counter in the last WC was well practiced, I can see them pulling this off.

Any thoughts?



Without going into real specifics your right that this is one overall way of playing against Barca imo. But I'd add that other teams/coaches before Mourinho have been successful and showed the template as messifan said. Notibably Osasuna in 09/10 were magnificiant.
There is another high profile used, again as messifan mentioned, such as by the likes of Arsenal,using high line, high pressure etc-



Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

You didn't answer my questions though. If Sanchez doesn't go down, do the officials notice Terry's kick and is the offense a red card? IMO, if Sanchez doesn't go down, Terry's kick is still a red card, but it wouldn't be given because the officials wont notice it. Sanchez did what he had to do to draw the official's attention to Terry's red card offense.


If Sanchez does not use deception then it is likely that Terry does not get a red card for kneeing him.


Agree
messifan10

Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 1,522
Posted 04/28/12 Reply with quote  #63 
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulee

Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

There is also another way, but so far only Mourinho has done it with Real M. That alternative plan is to pressure high up the field and disrupt Barca's build up play at the beginning stage. The problem with that plan is that only Real M has the players to pull it off.

Why just them?  What special qualities do you need to have?  If we're just talking about pressuring, you really just need to be fit.


Athleticism, fitness, discipline, communication, timing, determination, teamwork, work rate, aggression,  marking, tackling, etc. These are some of the attributes your players need to pressure Barca high up the field. You also need to be willing to take the risk. So far I've only seen Real M do it and do it successfully somewhat. Espanyol tried it last season but unsuccessfully as they got burned 5-1 at their own stadium, because Barca found a way through the high pressure. 
messifan10

Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 1,522
Posted 04/28/12 Reply with quote  #64 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

You didn't answer my questions though. If Sanchez doesn't go down, do the officials notice Terry's kick and is the offense a red card? IMO, if Sanchez doesn't go down, Terry's kick is still a red card, but it wouldn't be given because the officials wont notice it. Sanchez did what he had to do to draw the official's attention to Terry's red card offense.


Edit:

Answer:
If Sanchez does not use deception then it is likely that Terry does not get a red card for kneeing him.

Opinion:
Both are wrong



Why do you call it "deception"? Terry kicked him with the knee in the back, off the ball. It's a red card. Sanchez just drew attention to the offense. He didn't use deception, he didn't fake the contact.

I guarantee you that if Sanchez didn't go down, the officials wouldn't see it and Terry wouldn't have been sent off. Would that be more fair? I don't think so. His offense deserved a red card. 

I also guarantee you that if a Barca player did the same to a Chelsea player, he also would've gone down.

Either way, I do not think the player going down (to draw attention to a red card deserving offense) is wrong.

Last week, in the 1st leg of Bayern vs Real M, Marcelo pushed/punched Boateng in the face after Marcelo himself committed a horrible tackle on Muller at the end of the game. Do you remember the incident? Marcelo should've been sent off IMO, regardless if Boateng went down or not, but the referee didn't see it. BTW, Drogba was sent off for similar thing the 2008 CL final vs Man United.
mslater

Registered: 03/15/11
Posts: 9
Posted 04/28/12 Reply with quote  #65 
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

You didn't answer my questions though. If Sanchez doesn't go down, do the officials notice Terry's kick and is the offense a red card? IMO, if Sanchez doesn't go down, Terry's kick is still a red card, but it wouldn't be given because the officials wont notice it. Sanchez did what he had to do to draw the official's attention to Terry's red card offense.


Edit:

Answer:
If Sanchez does not use deception then it is likely that Terry does not get a red card for kneeing him.

Opinion:
Both are wrong



Why do you call it "deception"? Terry kicked him with the knee in the back, off the ball. It's a red card. Sanchez just drew attention to the offense. He didn't use deception, he didn't fake the contact.

I guarantee you that if Sanchez didn't go down, the officials wouldn't see it and Terry wouldn't have been sent off. Would that be more fair? I don't think so. His offense deserved a red card. 

I also guarantee you that if a Barca player did the same to a Chelsea player, he also would've gone down.

Either way, I do not think the player going down (to draw attention to a red card deserving offense) is wrong.

Last week, in the 1st leg of Bayern vs Real M, Marcelo pushed/punched Boateng in the face after Marcelo himself committed a horrible tackle on Muller at the end of the game. Do you remember the incident? Marcelo should've been sent off IMO, regardless if Boateng went down or not, but the referee didn't see it. BTW, Drogba was sent off for similar thing the 2008 CL final vs Man United.


Take the incident later in the game (after Terry was sent off).  Fabregas went down and tried to keep playing the ball while on the ground. Lampard got frustrated Fabs was hacking at his ankles and whacked the ball and took some of Fabs with him. Fabs while still on the ground bear hugs Lampards' lower torso. Players from both teams come in for a little mass confrontation.

Lampard did not dive and tumble to the ground as a result of Fabs grabbing him. Should he have?  If he had, the ref likely would've had to made a decision whether to discipline Fabs. If Lampard were Barca would he have gone to ground? 

Next consider Messi, coming to the defense of Fabs, runs up to Lampard and punch-shoves him in the chest with both hands. If Lamps was as practiced a diver as Sanchez, he would've exaggerated the momentum of the push and flown into the air, feet first, and flailed around after landing violently...maybe even rolled another 2-3 yards with a vocal scream or two.  If he had, the ref would've been forced to make a decision whether to str8 red Messi for Violent Conduct.  He would've also had to make a decision on whether to caution Lampard for simulation. Both would've been warranted in this hypothetical.

In too many cases officials are allowing simulation to go unpunished, IMHO to the detriment of the game. The divers continue to get more and more polished because there is currently far more reward than risk in continuing to perfect the craft.  
txsnowman

Registered: 11/18/08
Posts: 125
Posted 04/28/12 Reply with quote  #66 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mslater
Take the incident later in the game (after Terry was sent off).  Fabregas went down and tried to keep playing the ball while on the ground. Lampard got frustrated Fabs was hacking at his ankles and whacked the ball and took some of Fabs with him. Fabs while still on the ground bear hugs Lampards' lower torso. Players from both teams come in for a little mass confrontation. 

Lampard did not dive and tumble to the ground as a result of Fabs grabbing him. Should he have?  If he had, the ref likely would've had to made a decision whether to discipline Fabs. If Lampard were Barca would he have gone to ground? 

Next consider Messi, coming to the defense of Fabs, runs up to Lampard and punch-shoves him in the chest with both hands. If Lamps was as practiced a diver as Sanchez, he would've exaggerated the momentum of the push and flown into the air, feet first, and flailed around after landing violently...maybe even rolled another 2-3 yards with a vocal scream or two.  If he had, the ref would've been forced to make a decision whether to str8 red Messi for Violent Conduct.  He would've also had to make a decision on whether to caution Lampard for simulation. Both would've been warranted in this hypothetical.

In too many cases officials are allowing simulation to go unpunished, IMHO to the detriment of the game. The divers continue to get more and more polished because there is currently far more reward than risk in continuing to perfect the craft.  

^this+1

In regards to "deception" I would say that it is deceptive to fake injury, which he did. He did not fake contact but deceiving the referee into believing you are injured is the same thing.

I am going to paraphrase the LoTG and interpretation of said book bc it is late: any simulation on the field intended to deceive the referee MUST be sanctioned as unsporting behavior. (semi-quote).

So while I agree that it was a foul and probably a red card...though no more a red card than what Messi did later in the game to Lampard, but I digress...Barca's simulation in feigning injury to provide cards was frustrating to see in my opinion.
gregm

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 1,454
Posted 04/29/12 Reply with quote  #67 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mslater
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

You didn't answer my questions though. If Sanchez doesn't go down, do the officials notice Terry's kick and is the offense a red card? IMO, if Sanchez doesn't go down, Terry's kick is still a red card, but it wouldn't be given because the officials wont notice it. Sanchez did what he had to do to draw the official's attention to Terry's red card offense.


Edit:

Answer:
If Sanchez does not use deception then it is likely that Terry does not get a red card for kneeing him.

Opinion:
Both are wrong



Why do you call it "deception"? Terry kicked him with the knee in the back, off the ball. It's a red card. Sanchez just drew attention to the offense. He didn't use deception, he didn't fake the contact.

I guarantee you that if Sanchez didn't go down, the officials wouldn't see it and Terry wouldn't have been sent off. Would that be more fair? I don't think so. His offense deserved a red card. 

I also guarantee you that if a Barca player did the same to a Chelsea player, he also would've gone down.

Either way, I do not think the player going down (to draw attention to a red card deserving offense) is wrong.

Last week, in the 1st leg of Bayern vs Real M, Marcelo pushed/punched Boateng in the face after Marcelo himself committed a horrible tackle on Muller at the end of the game. Do you remember the incident? Marcelo should've been sent off IMO, regardless if Boateng went down or not, but the referee didn't see it. BTW, Drogba was sent off for similar thing the 2008 CL final vs Man United.


Take the incident later in the game (after Terry was sent off).  Fabregas went down and tried to keep playing the ball while on the ground. Lampard got frustrated Fabs was hacking at his ankles and whacked the ball and took some of Fabs with him. Fabs while still on the ground bear hugs Lampards' lower torso. Players from both teams come in for a little mass confrontation.

Lampard did not dive and tumble to the ground as a result of Fabs grabbing him. Should he have?  If he had, the ref likely would've had to made a decision whether to discipline Fabs. If Lampard were Barca would he have gone to ground? 

Next consider Messi, coming to the defense of Fabs, runs up to Lampard and punch-shoves him in the chest with both hands. If Lamps was as practiced a diver as Sanchez, he would've exaggerated the momentum of the push and flown into the air, feet first, and flailed around after landing violently...maybe even rolled another 2-3 yards with a vocal scream or two.  If he had, the ref would've been forced to make a decision whether to str8 red Messi for Violent Conduct.  He would've also had to make a decision on whether to caution Lampard for simulation. Both would've been warranted in this hypothetical.

In too many cases officials are allowing simulation to go unpunished, IMHO to the detriment of the game. The divers continue to get more and more polished because there is currently far more reward than risk in continuing to perfect the craft.  

My take on the Fab and Lampard incident is very different than yours. As I remember it Lampard was making some threatening moves to either stomp on Fabregas or something similar. Fabregas was in a precarious situation and almost defenseless. In fact his only defense was to grab Lampard's leg. So he did. As I write this I have not seen a replay and this was my first impression.

The Messi shove was bad but everyone could see it wasn't that hard. If Lampard goes down it would have been clear embellishing.
SoundSoccer

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 1,570
Posted 04/29/12 Reply with quote  #68 
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

You didn't answer my questions though. If Sanchez doesn't go down, do the officials notice Terry's kick and is the offense a red card? IMO, if Sanchez doesn't go down, Terry's kick is still a red card, but it wouldn't be given because the officials wont notice it. Sanchez did what he had to do to draw the official's attention to Terry's red card offense.


Edit:

Answer:
If Sanchez does not use deception then it is likely that Terry does not get a red card for kneeing him.

Opinion:
Both are wrong



Why do you call it "deception"? Terry kicked him with the knee in the back, off the ball. It's a red card. Sanchez just drew attention to the offense. He didn't use deception, he didn't fake the contact.

I guarantee you that if Sanchez didn't go down, the officials wouldn't see it and Terry wouldn't have been sent off. Would that be more fair? I don't think so. His offense deserved a red card. 

I also guarantee you that if a Barca player did the same to a Chelsea player, he also would've gone down.

Either way, I do not think the player going down (to draw attention to a red card deserving offense) is wrong.

Last week, in the 1st leg of Bayern vs Real M, Marcelo pushed/punched Boateng in the face after Marcelo himself committed a horrible tackle on Muller at the end of the game. Do you remember the incident? Marcelo should've been sent off IMO, regardless if Boateng went down or not, but the referee didn't see it. BTW, Drogba was sent off for similar thing the 2008 CL final vs Man United.


I used the word "deception" because the laws of the game do and that is how I see it as well.  As txsnowman paraphrased from the laws of the game ... simulation intended to deceive the referee.

The severity of the foul is many times associated with the severity of the end result. 

In my view Sanchez wasn't hurt, he acted like he was hurt to make sure Terry was sent off.

That is why I believe both he and Terry were both wrong, subject to the laws of the game.

Terry = sending off offense:  serious foul play and/or violent conduct
Sanchez = cautionable offense:  unsporting behavior (attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury, acts in a manner that shows a lack of respect for the game).
__________________
"Yesterday you said Tomorrow"
http://www.soundsoccer.com
mslater

Registered: 03/15/11
Posts: 9
Posted 04/29/12 Reply with quote  #69 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregm

My take on the Fab and Lampard incident is very different than yours. As I remember it Lampard was making some threatening moves to either stomp on Fabregas or something similar. Fabregas was in a precarious situation and almost defenseless. In fact his only defense was to grab Lampard's leg. So he did. As I write this I have not seen a replay and this was my first impression.

The Messi shove was bad but everyone could see it wasn't that hard. If Lampard goes down it would have been clear embellishing.


I went back and watched the replay today to be sure I saw what I saw. The only thing I had wrong was Fabs hacked Mata instead of Lamps.

The exact sequence was ball gets played in to Fabs and Lamps closes him down and puts his hand on Fabs shoulder. Fabs sensed the touch and immediately flopped over the ball.  Center was standing within 5 yards and leaned in and made it clear he's not giving a call to fabs. The ball was trapped under Fabs leg when he flopped and mata ran by just in front of Lampard to try and play it. Fabs appeared upset the ref didn't buy his dive and slings out a leg and trips mata while still on ground. Mata goes to ground and Lamps standing nearby aggressively kicks the ball out from under Fabregas. Fabs gets to his knees and grabs Lamps leg and Messi comes in and shoves Lamps. You can see Lamps had to hop to keep his balance after the Messi shove because Fabs was still holding his leg. He easily could've flopped. The ref did give a free kick to Chelsea, presumably for either Fabregas' trip on Mata while on ground, or for Fabs grabbing Lamps.  If Lamps' intent was to get Fabs or Messi sent off he would've embellished, and were he as slick as the best of the Barca serial divers he likely would've been rewarded. 

I'd be interested to find stats of how many high-level Barca games the last 3-4 years have involved their opponent playing a man down.
gregm

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 1,454
Posted 04/30/12 Reply with quote  #70 
I guess you didn't notice the part when Lampard intentionally turns back to Fabregas on the ground and takes two steps into him. This is after the whistle. If Lampard stays where he is there is no confrontation and no shove. I think that's why Messi shoved Lampard. When an opponent threatens your teammate you step in.

I'll grant to you that Barca dive, but I'm not sure that they dive anymore often than other teams. You have to consider that when a team has 70% of the possession they are going to be fouled more. Which means you are going to see more dives from Barca than from the other team (though Drogba almost made up that deficit by himself). I don't like the diving. I just don't think Barca cheat or dive anymore than other teams. And their best player and most fouled player rarely dives. I don't think you can find another dribbler like Messi who attempts to stay on his feet after so many shoves and trips.
mslater

Registered: 03/15/11
Posts: 9
Posted 04/30/12 Reply with quote  #71 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregm
I guess you didn't notice the part when Lampard intentionally turns back to Fabregas on the ground and takes two steps into him. This is after the whistle. If Lampard stays where he is there is no confrontation and no shove. I think that's why Messi shoved Lampard. When an opponent threatens your teammate you step in.

I'll grant to you that Barca dive, but I'm not sure that they dive anymore often than other teams. You have to consider that when a team has 70% of the possession they are going to be fouled more. Which means you are going to see more dives from Barca than from the other team (though Drogba almost made up that deficit by himself). I don't like the diving. I just don't think Barca cheat or dive anymore than other teams. And their best player and most fouled player rarely dives. I don't think you can find another dribbler like Messi who attempts to stay on his feet after so many shoves and trips.

We can litigate this one play forever, the larger point is officials are encouraging the diving because they're less likely to penalize incidents where the player doesn't go to ground, and they're far more likely to just play on rather than penalize obvious dives.

Maybe Barca has more posession, gets fouled more and thus gets more practice diving. For whatever reason, more Barca divers are supremely skilled at selling the foul than any team I've seen the last 4-5 years.

Drogba dives to keep possession during his hold up play. His diving is abhorrent too, but he's not particularly convincing and I don't think I've ever seen him actually fool an official.  

He deserves a few more simulation cards for sure, but he's nowhere near as skilled as Sanchez, Fabs, Busquets, Pedro and Villa. I agree with you 100% Messi is absolutely not one of the culprits, but the reality is Barca is the one of the all-time great teams and young players all over the world are trying to emulate everything they do...even the diving.  
messifan10

Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 1,522
Posted 04/30/12 Reply with quote  #72 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

You didn't answer my questions though. If Sanchez doesn't go down, do the officials notice Terry's kick and is the offense a red card? IMO, if Sanchez doesn't go down, Terry's kick is still a red card, but it wouldn't be given because the officials wont notice it. Sanchez did what he had to do to draw the official's attention to Terry's red card offense.


Edit:

Answer:
If Sanchez does not use deception then it is likely that Terry does not get a red card for kneeing him.

Opinion:
Both are wrong



Why do you call it "deception"? Terry kicked him with the knee in the back, off the ball. It's a red card. Sanchez just drew attention to the offense. He didn't use deception, he didn't fake the contact.

I guarantee you that if Sanchez didn't go down, the officials wouldn't see it and Terry wouldn't have been sent off. Would that be more fair? I don't think so. His offense deserved a red card. 

I also guarantee you that if a Barca player did the same to a Chelsea player, he also would've gone down.

Either way, I do not think the player going down (to draw attention to a red card deserving offense) is wrong.

Last week, in the 1st leg of Bayern vs Real M, Marcelo pushed/punched Boateng in the face after Marcelo himself committed a horrible tackle on Muller at the end of the game. Do you remember the incident? Marcelo should've been sent off IMO, regardless if Boateng went down or not, but the referee didn't see it. BTW, Drogba was sent off for similar thing the 2008 CL final vs Man United.


I used the word "deception" because the laws of the game do and that is how I see it as well.  As txsnowman paraphrased from the laws of the game ... simulation intended to deceive the referee.

The severity of the foul is many times associated with the severity of the end result. 

In my view Sanchez wasn't hurt, he acted like he was hurt to make sure Terry was sent off.

That is why I believe both he and Terry were both wrong, subject to the laws of the game.

Terry = sending off offense:  serious foul play and/or violent conduct
Sanchez = cautionable offense:  unsporting behavior (attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury, acts in a manner that shows a lack of respect for the game).


Sanchez didn't simulate or deceive the referee, he was legitimately kicked in the back by Terry. How hard was he kicked and how much it hurt, only Sanchez knows and we can't be sure, can we? I know from experience that a kick like that can be to the tail bone and those hurt a lot. One can also go down because of a kick to the tail bone.

Here is a question: What would you do if you were kicked like that, like Sanchez was? Would you go down? Would you retaliate and kick the player back?

I see nothing in Sanchez as "unsporting behavior" in this situation.
messifan10

Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 1,522
Posted 04/30/12 Reply with quote  #73 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregm
I'll grant to you that Barca dive, but I'm not sure that they dive anymore often than other teams. You have to consider that when a team has 70% of the possession they are going to be fouled more. Which means you are going to see more dives from Barca than from the other team (though Drogba almost made up that deficit by himself). I don't like the diving. I just don't think Barca cheat or dive anymore than other teams. And their best player and most fouled player rarely dives. I don't think you can find another dribbler like Messi who attempts to stay on his feet after so many shoves and trips.

I agree with this.
SoundSoccer

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 1,570
Posted 04/30/12 Reply with quote  #74 
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

You didn't answer my questions though. If Sanchez doesn't go down, do the officials notice Terry's kick and is the offense a red card? IMO, if Sanchez doesn't go down, Terry's kick is still a red card, but it wouldn't be given because the officials wont notice it. Sanchez did what he had to do to draw the official's attention to Terry's red card offense.


Edit:

Answer:
If Sanchez does not use deception then it is likely that Terry does not get a red card for kneeing him.

Opinion:
Both are wrong



Why do you call it "deception"? Terry kicked him with the knee in the back, off the ball. It's a red card. Sanchez just drew attention to the offense. He didn't use deception, he didn't fake the contact.

I guarantee you that if Sanchez didn't go down, the officials wouldn't see it and Terry wouldn't have been sent off. Would that be more fair? I don't think so. His offense deserved a red card. 

I also guarantee you that if a Barca player did the same to a Chelsea player, he also would've gone down.

Either way, I do not think the player going down (to draw attention to a red card deserving offense) is wrong.

Last week, in the 1st leg of Bayern vs Real M, Marcelo pushed/punched Boateng in the face after Marcelo himself committed a horrible tackle on Muller at the end of the game. Do you remember the incident? Marcelo should've been sent off IMO, regardless if Boateng went down or not, but the referee didn't see it. BTW, Drogba was sent off for similar thing the 2008 CL final vs Man United.


I used the word "deception" because the laws of the game do and that is how I see it as well.  As txsnowman paraphrased from the laws of the game ... simulation intended to deceive the referee.

The severity of the foul is many times associated with the severity of the end result. 

In my view Sanchez wasn't hurt, he acted like he was hurt to make sure Terry was sent off.

That is why I believe both he and Terry were both wrong, subject to the laws of the game.

Terry = sending off offense:  serious foul play and/or violent conduct
Sanchez = cautionable offense:  unsporting behavior (attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury, acts in a manner that shows a lack of respect for the game).


Sanchez didn't simulate or deceive the referee, he was legitimately kicked in the back by Terry. How hard was he kicked and how much it hurt, only Sanchez knows and we can't be sure, can we? I know from experience that a kick like that can be to the tail bone and those hurt a lot. One can also go down because of a kick to the tail bone.

Here is a question: What would you do if you were kicked like that, like Sanchez was? Would you go down? Would you retaliate and kick the player back?

I see nothing in Sanchez as "unsporting behavior" in this situation.


And this is where our conversation comes full circle.  The replays I saw had Sanchez go through a progression of falling down, looking to the referee, raising his hand and appealing to the AR and then curling up in pain.

Our opinions come from what we believe we saw.  I am not an avid supporter of either team although I do enjoy watching both play.

If I had been kneed by an opponent I would react to the severity of the pain that I could handle.  Very few times (if ever) in my playing career can I recall ever falling to the ground and writhing in pain ... broken bones and torn ligaments included.

My guess is that Sanchez has a much higher pain tolerance than I.

At the end of the day, whether we agree on this particular incident or not, I think this type of behavior takes away from the game.  And the higher the stakes the more it seems to be present.
__________________
"Yesterday you said Tomorrow"
http://www.soundsoccer.com
messifan10

Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 1,522
Posted 04/30/12 Reply with quote  #75 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

You didn't answer my questions though. If Sanchez doesn't go down, do the officials notice Terry's kick and is the offense a red card? IMO, if Sanchez doesn't go down, Terry's kick is still a red card, but it wouldn't be given because the officials wont notice it. Sanchez did what he had to do to draw the official's attention to Terry's red card offense.


Edit:

Answer:
If Sanchez does not use deception then it is likely that Terry does not get a red card for kneeing him.

Opinion:
Both are wrong



Why do you call it "deception"? Terry kicked him with the knee in the back, off the ball. It's a red card. Sanchez just drew attention to the offense. He didn't use deception, he didn't fake the contact.

I guarantee you that if Sanchez didn't go down, the officials wouldn't see it and Terry wouldn't have been sent off. Would that be more fair? I don't think so. His offense deserved a red card. 

I also guarantee you that if a Barca player did the same to a Chelsea player, he also would've gone down.

Either way, I do not think the player going down (to draw attention to a red card deserving offense) is wrong.

Last week, in the 1st leg of Bayern vs Real M, Marcelo pushed/punched Boateng in the face after Marcelo himself committed a horrible tackle on Muller at the end of the game. Do you remember the incident? Marcelo should've been sent off IMO, regardless if Boateng went down or not, but the referee didn't see it. BTW, Drogba was sent off for similar thing the 2008 CL final vs Man United.


I used the word "deception" because the laws of the game do and that is how I see it as well.  As txsnowman paraphrased from the laws of the game ... simulation intended to deceive the referee.

The severity of the foul is many times associated with the severity of the end result. 

In my view Sanchez wasn't hurt, he acted like he was hurt to make sure Terry was sent off.

That is why I believe both he and Terry were both wrong, subject to the laws of the game.

Terry = sending off offense:  serious foul play and/or violent conduct
Sanchez = cautionable offense:  unsporting behavior (attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury, acts in a manner that shows a lack of respect for the game).


Sanchez didn't simulate or deceive the referee, he was legitimately kicked in the back by Terry. How hard was he kicked and how much it hurt, only Sanchez knows and we can't be sure, can we? I know from experience that a kick like that can be to the tail bone and those hurt a lot. One can also go down because of a kick to the tail bone.

Here is a question: What would you do if you were kicked like that, like Sanchez was? Would you go down? Would you retaliate and kick the player back?

I see nothing in Sanchez as "unsporting behavior" in this situation.


And this is where our conversation comes full circle.  The replays I saw had Sanchez go through a progression of falling down, looking to the referee, raising his hand and appealing to the AR and then curling up in pain.

Our opinions come from what we believe we saw.  I am not an avid supporter of either team although I do enjoy watching both play.

If I had been kneed by an opponent I would react to the severity of the pain that I could handle.  Very few times (if ever) in my playing career can I recall ever falling to the ground and writhing in pain ... broken bones and torn ligaments included.

My guess is that Sanchez has a much higher pain tolerance than I.

At the end of the day, whether we agree on this particular incident or not, I think this type of behavior takes away from the game.  And the higher the stakes the more it seems to be present.

Perhaps Sanchez was looking at the referee to check if he sees that Terry kicked him in the back. He is appealing and turning to the AR to draw attention to the offense Terry has just committed. There is nothing unsporting in that.

Are you saying I view the situation differently because I'm a Barca fan? I can tell you that if a player from another team did the same my opinion wouldn't be different.

So if you were kneed in the back you wouldn't try to draw attention to the offense? Yeah, right....You and I do not know Sanchez' pain tolerance. But I don't know how you can say that his is higher when you've never gone down even with broken bones and torn ligaments.

This type of behavior takes away from the game? What type? Sanchez didn't do anything wrong. Terry did, however. Sanchez did exactly what most of us will do in this situation.
SoundSoccer

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 1,570
Posted 04/30/12 Reply with quote  #76 
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSoccer
Quote:
Originally Posted by messifan10

You didn't answer my questions though. If Sanchez doesn't go down, do the officials notice Terry's kick and is the offense a red card? IMO, if Sanchez doesn't go down, Terry's kick is still a red card, but it wouldn't be given because the officials wont notice it. Sanchez did what he had to do to draw the official's attention to Terry's red card offense.


Edit:

Answer:
If Sanchez does not use deception then it is likely that Terry does not get a red card for kneeing him.

Opinion:
Both are wrong



Why do you call it "deception"? Terry kicked him with the knee in the back, off the ball. It's a red card. Sanchez just drew attention to the offense. He didn't use deception, he didn't fake the contact.

I guarantee you that if Sanchez didn't go down, the officials wouldn't see it and Terry wouldn't have been sent off. Would that be more fair? I don't think so. His offense deserved a red card. 

I also guarantee you that if a Barca player did the same to a Chelsea player, he also would've gone down.

Either way, I do not think the player going down (to draw attention to a red card deserving offense) is wrong.

Last week, in the 1st leg of Bayern vs Real M, Marcelo pushed/punched Boateng in the face after Marcelo himself committed a horrible tackle on Muller at the end of the game. Do you remember the incident? Marcelo should've been sent off IMO, regardless if Boateng went down or not, but the referee didn't see it. BTW, Drogba was sent off for similar thing the 2008 CL final vs Man United.


I used the word "deception" because the laws of the game do and that is how I see it as well.  As txsnowman paraphrased from the laws of the game ... simulation intended to deceive the referee.

The severity of the foul is many times associated with the severity of the end result. 

In my view Sanchez wasn't hurt, he acted like he was hurt to make sure Terry was sent off.

That is why I believe both he and Terry were both wrong, subject to the laws of the game.

Terry = sending off offense:  serious foul play and/or violent conduct
Sanchez = cautionable offense:  unsporting behavior (attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury, acts in a manner that shows a lack of respect for the game).


Sanchez didn't simulate or deceive the referee, he was legitimately kicked in the back by Terry. How hard was he kicked and how much it hurt, only Sanchez knows and we can't be sure, can we? I know from experience that a kick like that can be to the tail bone and those hurt a lot. One can also go down because of a kick to the tail bone.

Here is a question: What would you do if you were kicked like that, like Sanchez was? Would you go down? Would you retaliate and kick the player back?

I see nothing in Sanchez as "unsporting behavior" in this situation.


And this is where our conversation comes full circle.  The replays I saw had Sanchez go through a progression of falling down, looking to the referee, raising his hand and appealing to the AR and then curling up in pain.

Our opinions come from what we believe we saw.  I am not an avid supporter of either team although I do enjoy watching both play.

If I had been kneed by an opponent I would react to the severity of the pain that I could handle.  Very few times (if ever) in my playing career can I recall ever falling to the ground and writhing in pain ... broken bones and torn ligaments included.

My guess is that Sanchez has a much higher pain tolerance than I.

At the end of the day, whether we agree on this particular incident or not, I think this type of behavior takes away from the game.  And the higher the stakes the more it seems to be present.

Perhaps Sanchez was looking at the referee to check if he sees that Terry kicked him in the back. He is appealing and turning to the AR to draw attention to the offense Terry has just committed. There is nothing unsporting in that.

Are you saying I view the situation differently because I'm a Barca fan? I can tell you that if a player from another team did the same my opinion wouldn't be different.

So if you were kneed in the back you wouldn't try to draw attention to the offense? Yeah, right....You and I do not know Sanchez' pain tolerance. But I don't know how you can say that his is higher when you've never gone down even with broken bones and torn ligaments.

This type of behavior takes away from the game? What type? Sanchez didn't do anything wrong. Terry did, however. Sanchez did exactly what most of us will do in this situation.


As I said, the conversation has come full circle ... not sure I am looking to go around again

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